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PAF Air Refueling Capability

You having worked on the viper: is it possible to switch it over to the hose and drogue system via an add on to that receptacle?
If you pour enough resources -- money and intellect -- it can be done. But the -16 is as 'tight' an airframe as General Dynamics made it so pragmatically speaking -- no.

A good read for this subject...

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL32910.pdf
Many tanker aircraft that employ the hose-and-drogue system, can simultaneously employ two such mechanisms — and, refuel two aircraft simultaneously. The boom, however, can dispense fuel faster than a hose-and-drogue.

Estimates by the GAO and CRS suggest that the cost of producing and installing the MPRS could be roughly $5.1 million per aircraft in 2004 dollars or $510 million for 100 aircraft. (Air Force program officials estimate it takes approximately 7,000 man-hours, or up to seven months, to modify KC-135s to accept the MPRS.)15 This cost estimate does not consider newer systems being developed that could be more or less expensive than MPRS.

Regardless of which approach is taken to recapitalize the KC-135 fleet, legacy USAF fighter aircraft would need to be retrofitted, and new aircraft would need to be manufactured with refueling probes if they were to exploit multipoint hose-and-drogue refueling. It may be that the costs incurred by these modifications could be offset by the cost savings derived from improved aerial refueling effectiveness and corresponding reductions in tanker force structure. “According to 1991 Air Force estimates, the $1.3 billion cost to modify about 3,000 F-15 and F-16 fighter and 250 tankers [to hose-anddrogue configuration] could be offset by reduced operating and support costs from the retirement of about 26 KC-135 tankers.”
From my understanding of the F-16, when GD designed it, the 'hose-and-drogue' air refuel method was considered, but not seriously precisely because of airframe limitations. The cannon is on the port strake, so is it possible to install the air refueling drogue on the starboard strake ? Absolutely.

But just in case others missed my previous explanations about this subject, there were many reasons why the USAF focused on the single point boom air refueling method and chief among them were large and high fuel rate consumers like the B-52 and C-5 customers. As the boom method dispenses fuel faster than the hose-and-drogue method, if the hose-and-drogue method is employed, these 'heavy' customers would consume fuel faster than as they were being refueled. In other words, customer's fuel consumption is an important factor in selecting which method. Since the USN have no such heavy customers, the Navy is probably better off with the hose-and-drogue method, especially for tactical reasons since its air forces are more mobile and expeditionary than the USAF.
 
IL-78 Midas Air-to-Air Refueling / Transport Aircraft, Russia
Fuel-Time-large.jpg


The Ilyushin IL-78 air-to-air refuelling tanker aircraft is a four-engine tanker principally used for in-flight refuelling. It was designed and developed on the basis of a similar predecessor, the IL-76, and has the Nato reporting name Midas. The maiden flight of IL-78 took place on 26 June 1983 and the aircraft entered into service in 1984. About 53 aircraft are currently operational worldwide.

The IL-78 aircraft can refuel a maximum of four planes simultaneously on the ground. It can also be used as a military transport aircraft for air drop and air landing of cargo and crew.

IL-78 aerial refueling tanker variants
The IL-78 has five variants, namely IL-78T, IL-78M, IL-78ME, IL-78MKI, and IL-78MP.

IL-78T is an alternative version of the IL-78 primarily used for holding all cargo handling equipment and convertible freight.

Another variant, the IL-78M, is a consecrate tanker aircraft designed to perform only refuelling operations without being able to be converted into transport aircraft. It is equipped with three permanent fuselage tanks. The IL-78M took its maiden flight on 7 March 1987.

"The IL-78 aircraft can be used as a military transport aircraft for air drop and air landing of cargo and crew."
The IL-78ME is an export version of IL-78M.

The IL-78MKI is a tailor-made variant of IL-78M and is equipped with Israeli fuel-transferring systems. These aircraft were deployed by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and can refuel six to eight Sukhoi Su-30MKIs in a single operation. The variant took its maiden flight on 11 January 2003.

The IL-78MP is a multipurpose aerial-refueling tanker or transport aircraft. It is fitted with removable fuel tanks in the cargo hold and UPAZ refueling pods.

These aircraft are deployed by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) and can be easily converted to transport aircraft by removing the fuel tanks.

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In December 2008, the PAF signed an agreement with Ukraine to procure four IL-78 refueling aircraft equipped with Russian-designed UPAZ refueling pods.

The first IL-78 aircraft was delivered in December 2009. The second was delivered in 2010 and the third tanker in February 2011. The fourth is yet to be delivered.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) placed an order for six IL-78s in 2003. The first refueling aircraft equipped with Israeli-made aerial refuelling pods was delivered to IAF in March 2003. The IL-78 has a total fuel carrying capacity of 110,000kg.

The deliveries to IAF were completed in 2004. The aircraft have been deployed at the Agra Air Force Base in India.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force procured four IL-78s in 2005. The Russian and Ukrainian Air Forces operate 19 and eight IL-78 aircraft respectively.

IL-78 development
The IL-78 is derived from the IL-76. It was designed and developed by Ilyushin Aviation Complex, Russia to meet the requirements of Russian Air Force.

The aircraft was developed as part of the tanker project in 1982 to enhance the transferable fuel load of the earlier version IL-76. The IL-78 was developed as a three point air-to-air probe and drogue tanker aircraft and can deliver fuel at the rate of 900l to 2,200l a minute.

The new-generation aircraft (IL-78) is equipped with two removable 18,230l fuel tanks installed in the freight hold affording a transferable load of 85,720kg (188,584lb) with hold tanks and 57,720kg (126,984lb) without hold tanks as compared with the IL-76's transferable fuel load of 10,000kg. It is also fitted with a fuel jettison system at the wing tips.

The IL-78M variant is fitted with an additional freight hold tank on the fuselage section. It has increased the transferable fuel to 105,720kg (233,070lb) and the maximum take-off weight (MTOW) to 210,000kg to strengthen the wing torsion box. All cargo doors and cargo handling equipment were removed from the aircraft, reducing the structural weight by 5,000kg. Out of the total 138,000kg cargo, only 105,720kg is transferable.

A convertible refuelling tanker aircraft, the IL-78MK is developed based on the IL-78M. The IL-78MK can refuel three types of aircraft simultaneously in air or four aircraft on the ground using traditional refuelling tubes extending from the cargo hold.

The IL-78MK-90 is derived from IL-78MK. It is powered by PS-90A-76 turbofan engine, which has increased the cruise speed to 850km/h. The take-off and landing distances of the IL-78MK-90 are 1,550m and 40m respectively.

Refuelling
The primary air fuel transfer method is done through the UPAZ-1A (Il-78) or UPAZ-1M (Il-78M) refuelling units equipped to the outer wings and rear fuselage controlled by an operator located at the flight engineer's station in the cockpit. The receiver's aircraft is equipped with homing radar behind a broad flat aft-facing radome, which facilitates the efficient refuelling process.

"The IL-78 aircraft can refuel a maximum of four planes simultaneously on the ground."
The IL-78 is fitted with wing-tip hose and drogue air refuelling pods. The receiving aircraft approaches the tanker and its probe makes contact with a hose reeled out and trailed from the tanker.

Inside the refuelling pods, a collapsible funnel-shaped drogue is attached to a hose, which is reeled out to trail behind the wing of the aircraft. The hose is fitted with a constant tension spring to give stability while it is extended.

IL-78 cockpit
The IL-78 has a glass cockpit that features five seats for two pilots, a communication officer, a navigator and a flight engineer. The two pilots sit at the front of the cockpit and just behind it is a seat reserved for the flight engineer. The outer corner of the flight engineer's seat is meant for the communication officer. One deck below the glass nose is the navigator's chair.

Avionics
The avionics of the IL-78 include an integrated (automated) flight control and navigation system with a compass system, ground surveillance radar, a central digital computer, an automatic monitoring (AMS) and automatic flight control system (AFCS), a short-haul radio navigation and landing system, an identification friend or foe transponder (IFF), an optical / infrared aiming sight and a ground collision warning system (GCWS).

Other avionics installed in the aircraft include distance measuring equipment (DME), dual very-high-frequency (VHF) navigation / communication and X-band colour weather radar in the nose.

It is also fitted with a traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS), a global positioning system (GPS), a cockpit voice recorder / flight data recorder (CVR/FDR), an instrument landing system (ILS) and a tactical aid for navigation (TACAN) system.

Cargo
Six crew and up to 138,000kg cargo can be carried on the cargo deck above the refuelling systems.

Aviadvigatel D-30 KP turbofan engines
The IL-78 is powered by four Aviadvigatel D-30 KP turbofan engines. Each engine can produce a maximum take-off thrust of 118kN. It is a two-shaft, low-bypass turbofan engine equipped with two spool compressor and mixed flow.

The D-30 KP turbofan engine is primarily used for short-haul airplanes for passenger transportation. The length and fan tip diameter of the engine are 3.98m and 1.05m respectively.

IL-78 performance
The IL-78 can fly at a maximum speed of 850km/h. The range and service ceiling of the aircraft are 7,300km and 12,000m respectively. The aircraft weighs around 72,000kg and the maximum take-off weight is 210,000kg


ission Aerial refuelling tanker
Contractor Ilyushin
Current status To be delivered
IOC
Inventory
Empty weight 72,000kg
Maximum T/O weight 210,000kg
Fuel capacity 85,720kg (188,584 lb)
Speed (maximum) 850km/h
Range 7,300km
Service ceiling 12,000m
Refuelling system Three-point UPAZ-1M ‘Sakhalin’ probe and drogue refueling system (one under each wing and they removable, and one mounted on the port side of the rear fuselage); Navigation and positioning systems for day/night, all-weather operation
Crew 6
 
IL-78 Midas Air-to-Air Refueling / Transport Aircraft, Russia
Fuel-Time-large.jpg


The Ilyushin IL-78 air-to-air refuelling tanker aircraft is a four-engine tanker principally used for in-flight refuelling. It was designed and developed on the basis of a similar predecessor, the IL-76, and has the Nato reporting name Midas. The maiden flight of IL-78 took place on 26 June 1983 and the aircraft entered into service in 1984. About 53 aircraft are currently operational worldwide.

The IL-78 aircraft can refuel a maximum of four planes simultaneously on the ground. It can also be used as a military transport aircraft for air drop and air landing of cargo and crew.

IL-78 aerial refueling tanker variants
The IL-78 has five variants, namely IL-78T, IL-78M, IL-78ME, IL-78MKI, and IL-78MP.

IL-78T is an alternative version of the IL-78 primarily used for holding all cargo handling equipment and convertible freight.

Another variant, the IL-78M, is a consecrate tanker aircraft designed to perform only refuelling operations without being able to be converted into transport aircraft. It is equipped with three permanent fuselage tanks. The IL-78M took its maiden flight on 7 March 1987.

"The IL-78 aircraft can be used as a military transport aircraft for air drop and air landing of cargo and crew."
The IL-78ME is an export version of IL-78M.

The IL-78MKI is a tailor-made variant of IL-78M and is equipped with Israeli fuel-transferring systems. These aircraft were deployed by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and can refuel six to eight Sukhoi Su-30MKIs in a single operation. The variant took its maiden flight on 11 January 2003.

The IL-78MP is a multipurpose aerial-refueling tanker or transport aircraft. It is fitted with removable fuel tanks in the cargo hold and UPAZ refueling pods.

These aircraft are deployed by the Pakistani Air Force (PAF) and can be easily converted to transport aircraft by removing the fuel tanks.

Related Suppliers
ISO Group - Spare Parts Logistics for Military Aircraft
ISO Group, headquartered in West Melbourne, Florida, US, is a world leader...

See all suppliers
Midas orders and deliveries
In December 2008, the PAF signed an agreement with Ukraine to procure four IL-78 refueling aircraft equipped with Russian-designed UPAZ refueling pods.

The first IL-78 aircraft was delivered in December 2009. The second was delivered in 2010 and the third tanker in February 2011. The fourth is yet to be delivered.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) placed an order for six IL-78s in 2003. The first refueling aircraft equipped with Israeli-made aerial refuelling pods was delivered to IAF in March 2003. The IL-78 has a total fuel carrying capacity of 110,000kg.

The deliveries to IAF were completed in 2004. The aircraft have been deployed at the Agra Air Force Base in India.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force procured four IL-78s in 2005. The Russian and Ukrainian Air Forces operate 19 and eight IL-78 aircraft respectively.

IL-78 development
The IL-78 is derived from the IL-76. It was designed and developed by Ilyushin Aviation Complex, Russia to meet the requirements of Russian Air Force.

The aircraft was developed as part of the tanker project in 1982 to enhance the transferable fuel load of the earlier version IL-76. The IL-78 was developed as a three point air-to-air probe and drogue tanker aircraft and can deliver fuel at the rate of 900l to 2,200l a minute.

The new-generation aircraft (IL-78) is equipped with two removable 18,230l fuel tanks installed in the freight hold affording a transferable load of 85,720kg (188,584lb) with hold tanks and 57,720kg (126,984lb) without hold tanks as compared with the IL-76's transferable fuel load of 10,000kg. It is also fitted with a fuel jettison system at the wing tips.

The IL-78M variant is fitted with an additional freight hold tank on the fuselage section. It has increased the transferable fuel to 105,720kg (233,070lb) and the maximum take-off weight (MTOW) to 210,000kg to strengthen the wing torsion box. All cargo doors and cargo handling equipment were removed from the aircraft, reducing the structural weight by 5,000kg. Out of the total 138,000kg cargo, only 105,720kg is transferable.

A convertible refuelling tanker aircraft, the IL-78MK is developed based on the IL-78M. The IL-78MK can refuel three types of aircraft simultaneously in air or four aircraft on the ground using traditional refuelling tubes extending from the cargo hold.

The IL-78MK-90 is derived from IL-78MK. It is powered by PS-90A-76 turbofan engine, which has increased the cruise speed to 850km/h. The take-off and landing distances of the IL-78MK-90 are 1,550m and 40m respectively.

Refuelling
The primary air fuel transfer method is done through the UPAZ-1A (Il-78) or UPAZ-1M (Il-78M) refuelling units equipped to the outer wings and rear fuselage controlled by an operator located at the flight engineer's station in the cockpit. The receiver's aircraft is equipped with homing radar behind a broad flat aft-facing radome, which facilitates the efficient refuelling process.

"The IL-78 aircraft can refuel a maximum of four planes simultaneously on the ground."
The IL-78 is fitted with wing-tip hose and drogue air refuelling pods. The receiving aircraft approaches the tanker and its probe makes contact with a hose reeled out and trailed from the tanker.

Inside the refuelling pods, a collapsible funnel-shaped drogue is attached to a hose, which is reeled out to trail behind the wing of the aircraft. The hose is fitted with a constant tension spring to give stability while it is extended.

IL-78 cockpit
The IL-78 has a glass cockpit that features five seats for two pilots, a communication officer, a navigator and a flight engineer. The two pilots sit at the front of the cockpit and just behind it is a seat reserved for the flight engineer. The outer corner of the flight engineer's seat is meant for the communication officer. One deck below the glass nose is the navigator's chair.

Avionics
The avionics of the IL-78 include an integrated (automated) flight control and navigation system with a compass system, ground surveillance radar, a central digital computer, an automatic monitoring (AMS) and automatic flight control system (AFCS), a short-haul radio navigation and landing system, an identification friend or foe transponder (IFF), an optical / infrared aiming sight and a ground collision warning system (GCWS).

Other avionics installed in the aircraft include distance measuring equipment (DME), dual very-high-frequency (VHF) navigation / communication and X-band colour weather radar in the nose.

It is also fitted with a traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS), a global positioning system (GPS), a cockpit voice recorder / flight data recorder (CVR/FDR), an instrument landing system (ILS) and a tactical aid for navigation (TACAN) system.

Cargo
Six crew and up to 138,000kg cargo can be carried on the cargo deck above the refuelling systems.

Aviadvigatel D-30 KP turbofan engines
The IL-78 is powered by four Aviadvigatel D-30 KP turbofan engines. Each engine can produce a maximum take-off thrust of 118kN. It is a two-shaft, low-bypass turbofan engine equipped with two spool compressor and mixed flow.

The D-30 KP turbofan engine is primarily used for short-haul airplanes for passenger transportation. The length and fan tip diameter of the engine are 3.98m and 1.05m respectively.

IL-78 performance
The IL-78 can fly at a maximum speed of 850km/h. The range and service ceiling of the aircraft are 7,300km and 12,000m respectively. The aircraft weighs around 72,000kg and the maximum take-off weight is 210,000kg


ission Aerial refuelling tanker
Contractor Ilyushin
Current status To be delivered
IOC
Inventory
Empty weight 72,000kg
Maximum T/O weight 210,000kg
Fuel capacity 85,720kg (188,584 lb)
Speed (maximum) 850km/h
Range 7,300km
Service ceiling 12,000m
Refuelling system Three-point UPAZ-1M ‘Sakhalin’ probe and drogue refueling system (one under each wing and they removable, and one mounted on the port side of the rear fuselage); Navigation and positioning systems for day/night, all-weather operation
Crew 6
I am rather confused about the cargo carrying capacity of the il-78mp that we operate. There are numbers from as low as 50,000 kg and as high as 138,000 kg. Which is it really? I am talking about the cargo in the cargo bay and NOT the transferrable fuel load. With the cargo bay fuel tanks removed can the pakistani il-78s carry 100,000 kg? Assuming a reasonable flight distance of course.
 
No we don't.
Here is the summary...
1- PAF don't have intra-regional doctrine neither we have strategic depth.
2- Tankers for us are handy in case of strike/longer patrols (which is need/situation based). Close proximity of FOBs and operational bases practically rule out the need of tankers for us.
3- Regarding F16s, we have them in numbers. For air-defence role their loiter time is already good. Buying dedicated refuelers for F16s just don't fit in the scope of PAF ops.

can we get the IL78s to refuel our AEW&Cs?

i KNOW the AWACS have a great Loiter time is already pretty good. But just incase of build up at the border we might need such an operational need might arise.

Or incase of a strike mission coming in from the ocean being guided by the AEWs to hit the enemy where it won't be expecting us. for example south india
 
These birds are ancient. Does Pakistan have the capability to upgrade their electronics?
 
These birds are ancient. Does Pakistan have the capability to upgrade their electronics?
PAF originally wanted A310 MRTTs for their ability to refuel by boom as well as hose and drogue. This system would've enabled F-16s to refuel alongside Mirages and JF-17s.
But Airbus had discontinued the program, pushing instead the expensive A330 MRTT to the PAF.

I think the PAF will replace the IL-78s in the medium term once a feasible solution arises. It might look into the KC-390 once it is cleared for refuelling. Embraer is planning to put hose and drogue systems, but it is studying boom as well. The KC-390 could readily fulfill multiple key roles in PAF.
 
Around at 11:00 on September 6, the il -78 midas tanker at Chengdu Shuangliu Airport
15406571.jpg

leading the civilian aircrafts
 
PAF originally wanted A310 MRTTs for their ability to refuel by boom as well as hose and drogue. This system would've enabled F-16s to refuel alongside Mirages and JF-17s.
But Airbus had discontinued the program, pushing instead the expensive A330 MRTT to the PAF.

I think the PAF will replace the IL-78s in the medium term once a feasible solution arises. It might look into the KC-390 once it is cleared for refuelling. Embraer is planning to put hose and drogue systems, but it is studying boom as well. The KC-390 could readily fulfill multiple key roles in PAF.

The PAF, in the future would acquire used KC refuelers from the US, and new Chinese intermediate jets as they become available. The C-130 may also be looked into as Gunship (COIN ops in FATA) + refueling options. I think the C-130s are a much better option than KC's as it becomes a multi-role platform.
 
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