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Afghan officials accuse Pakistan of Indian embassy attack

So that would explain why they are not taking responsibility in Afghanistan either then.

It wouldn't, because they attack military or diplomatic targets in Afghanistan.

Also, the population in Afghanistan is far more conservative and pro-radical than in Pakistan. Its easier for them to gain support there.

Actually Pakistan's support for the Taliban initially was also attached to economic gains. The destabilized nature of Afghanistan was not conducive to establishing trade links and becoming an energy corridor - which at that time was the TAP pipeline. Both Ahmed Rashid and Steven Coll discuss that in their books Taliban and Ghost Wars.

There was also the benefit of having a government friendly to Pakistan, but the primary goal was stability through the Taliban.

Look, its quite simple. Pakistan doesn't want the Karzai regime which is pro-India.
To be more specific, the rabidly anti-India and pro-Jehadi elements within the Pakistan regime don't want the Karzai regime.

The current regime is extremely harmful to Pakistani interests, or so the Pakistani hardliners think. So its quite obvious that they would do their best to destabilize the current regime.

It is no more ridiculous that suggestions that the ISI is actively supporting destabilization (which it already is) in a country when that destabilization has severe repercussions for Pakistan, and Pakistan is already suffering from them.

It isn't because of the burden of evidence that significant pro-Taliban elements exist within the Pakistani establishment who support them for their ideology.

Sure, Pakistan is suffering the Taliban. But then why is it so weak in dealing with them?

Your destabilization argument has been shown wrong - if you read the ISSA report and others, it also talks about how Karzai is extremely unpopular because of the corruption and drugs and weapons trade. He has an extremely strong interest in deflecting attention away from all of Afghanistan's internal problems by blaming them on Pakistan, as does India since it pressures Pakistan.

What ISSA report?

Look, it sits squarely in India's interests to support the current democratic government in Pakistan. Its India's only hope of keeping Kashmir stable.
The last thing it wants, as I said, is for Pakistan to fall into the hands of extremists.

Its quite well known that the Taliban operates with impunity within Pakistan's borders. The US has been complaining for ages that Taliban fighters flee into Pakistan away from their reach.
There have also been several pieces that squarely blame elements within the Pakistani establishment for aiding the Taliban.

Also, the last thing India wants is to sabotage its own efforts in that country.
 
It wouldn't, because they attack military or diplomatic targets in Afghanistan.

Also, the population in Afghanistan is far more conservative and pro-radical than in Pakistan. Its easier for them to gain support there.
By your logic, since the Taliban should be claiming responsibility for attacking official targets, and teh TTP has always done that in Pakistan, then the attack on the police in Islamabad could only have been India, since that is the only other party that gains by destabilizing Pakistan

Look, its quite simple. Pakistan doesn't want the Karzai regime which is pro-India.
To be more specific, the rabidly anti-India and pro-Jehadi elements within the Pakistan regime don't want the Karzai regime.

The current regime is extremely harmful to Pakistani interests, or so the Pakistani hardliners think. So its quite obvious that they would do their best to destabilize the current regime.
Its not that simple, because bombing the Indian embassy does nothing to overthrow Karzai. It only seems a simple explanation to you because it fits your bias.

Karzai will be overthrown much more effectively by letting him do what he is - making a mess of governing the country - like I said, his administration's corruption and involvement in drugs and crimes, and the Afghan Taliban's activities have done far more to destabilize Afghanistan than attacks on Embassy's would.

This argument of yours of "overthrowing Karzai by destabilizing Afghanistan through attacking the Indian Embassy" is ludicrous.

It isn't because of the burden of evidence that significant pro-Taliban elements exist within the Pakistani establishment who support them for their ideology.

Sure, Pakistan is suffering the Taliban. But then why is it so weak in dealing with them?
There is no such evidence. The ISI has pretty much been under the control of Musharraf loyalists for several years now. Under Kiyani it was instrumental in catching those responsible for attempting to assassinate him. Currently it is headed by a Musharraf confidante (Nadeem Taj). Officers in the ISI are seconded for 3 to 5 year terms. The appointment of the DG has been typically done by the PM or President.

There is no omnipresent pro-Taliban cabal running the ISI, nor is there one responsible for the appointments to it. Officers get rotated in and out.

From an article in the CFR:

"Nevertheless, experts generally suspect Pakistan still provides some support to the Taliban, though probably not to the extent it did in the past. “If they’re giving them support,” Gannon says, “it’s access back and forth [to Afghanistan] and the ability to find safe haven.”
How much control does Pakistan’s political leadership have over the ISI?

Experts say Musharraf exercises firm control over his intelligence agency. “I do not accept the thesis that the ISI is a rogue organization,” Milam says. “It’s a disciplined army unit that does what it’s told, though it may push the envelope sometimes.” With a reported staff of 10,000, ISI is hardly monolithic: “Like in any secret service, there are rogue elements,” says Frederic Grare, a South Asia expert and visiting scholar at the Carnegie Endowment. He points out that many of the ISI’s agents have ethnic and cultural ties to Afghan insurgents, and naturally sympathize with them."


I pretty much agree with that assessment. There might be some rogue agent activity, but there is nothign to support that oft repeated red herring of a "state within a state" when you study how the organization operates.
What ISSA report?
Its a thread I started in this subforum. Link to the report is here. I don't agree with all of the conclusions, but some good information in there nonetheless.

South Asia Studies. June 13, 2008. © ISSA.
Look, it sits squarely in India's interests to support the current democratic government in Pakistan. Its India's only hope of keeping Kashmir stable.
The last thing it wants, as I said, is for Pakistan to fall into the hands of extremists.

Its quite well known that the Taliban operates with impunity within Pakistan's borders. The US has been complaining for ages that Taliban fighters flee into Pakistan away from their reach.
There have also been several pieces that squarely blame elements within the Pakistani establishment for aiding the Taliban.

Also, the last thing India wants is to sabotage its own efforts in that country.
The Taliban operates because we have domestic compulsions that have to be dealt with, there are also certain Taliban groups like those of Mullah Nazir and Haji Namdar that Pakistan openly deals with and does not want touched - because they appear to have little interest in violently enforcing Shariah in Pakistan like the TTP or Mullah FM in Swat did, and act as a counterweight to the more violent TTP.

But that does not mean that the GoP/ISI is actively training them and sponsoring them to attack NATO or Afghan troops.
 
Salim,

My one complaint is that all you have done on a forum elsewhere is exactly what you are suggesting we not do here - blame the ISI.


Do you feel that the ISI is in the control of the govt?

Have you read Bear Trap by the PA ISI Brigadier?
 
By your logic, since the Taliban should be claiming responsibility for attacking official targets, and teh TTP has always done that in Pakistan, then the attack on the police in Islamabad could only have been India, since that is the only other party that gains by destabilizing Pakistan

I have just explained that destabilizing Pakistan is the last thing on India's agenda as of now.
 
Do you feel that the ISI is in the control of the govt?

Have you read Bear Trap by the PA ISI Brigadier?

A different time Salim - and a very different situation. I have posted my views on the ISI in a bombing thread elsewhere.
 
I have just explained that destabilizing Pakistan is the last thing on India's agenda as of now.

As have I why Pakistan does not need to do anything to destabilize Afghanistan, especially this.

I am only including India in this because you insist on hypothesizing that Pakistan was responsible. The arguments form you are just as speculative as those from my side.
 
Embassy blast work of foreign spy agency: Afghanistan

Kabul: The bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul has the hallmarks of a particular intelligence agency that has a record of attacks in Afghanistan, a government spokesman said on Tuesday.

"Everything has the hallmarks of a particular intelligence agency that has conducted terror attacks in Afghanistan in the past," Humayun Hamidzada told a new conference a day after an attack which killed 41 people. "I am not going to name it. I think it is pretty obvious," he said.

Monday's bombing tore open the front gates of the embassy, killing 41 people and wounding some 150.

Embassy blast work of foreign spy agency: Afghanistan
 
Kabul: The bombing of the Indian embassy in Kabul has the hallmarks of a particular intelligence agency that has a record of attacks in Afghanistan, a government spokesman said on Tuesday.

"hallmark"?

I was unaware the ISI had a "hallmark" of how it carried out suicide bombings.

Driving a car full of explosives into a building.. didn't Hezbollah start that?

What about all the car bombings in Iraq, and Pakistan?

Darn the ISI has been active, if this is the "hallmark".

I didn't really think it was possible to dislike the pathetic excuse of a government the GoA than I already do.

Of course the Americans are completely silent, as they are on the corruption and weapons and drugs trade their blue eyed Kabulis are neck deep in, which report after report indicates is supplying the Taliban with weapons and resources.
 
Well, there you go. The Taliban are denying their involvement. So who's left?

Back when Taliban was in power, there were many many groups that hated Indian policies on Kashmir.

Plus it is obvious that these miscreants attack foreign elements, and India falls in that category it also is a supporter of the puppet Afghan Government, after all the Indian Army is training the Afghan troops, in a deal that was signed by both states in 2004 or 2005 as I remember.

Let me try to find it up.
 
India to train Afghan Army

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 23:55 IST

Josy Joseph

NEW DELHI: In a move that has surprised many observers within the government, a dozen Indian army officers and some 30 soldiers are set to move to Kabul to train the fledgling Afghan Army.

The move comes at a time when Afghanistan is in a chaos as the threat of Taliban resurgence is spreading.

Army officers here say that the 12 officers would mostly be from the infantry and Army Education Corps, and would leave for Kabul in the next couple of weeks. Their primary role would be to provide language skills, meaning English training, map reading, basic weapon handling etc to the Afghan Army officers.

Afghanistan has an army that is being built from the post-Taliban debris, and which has to ultimately take over the entire land operations from the international troops. Several foreign countries including the US, France, UK and others are involved in the training of the army.

The Indian move is sure to ruffle feathers in Pakistan and further complicate India’s situation in Afghanistan, where over 300 Border Road Organisation personnel are working on the Zaranj-Delaram road link. Indo-Tibetan Border Police personnel have been deployed there to protect the BRO people at work.

At least two Indians, including a BRO driver, have been killed till now in Afghanistan.

The Army officers said the 12 officers and support staff would be based in Kabul. It is not clear if they would be working at the Kabul Military Training Centre, where the basic training for soldiers is held.

DNA - Print This Article - India to train Afghan Army - Daily News & Analysis
 
Doesn't the Indian government know the consequences of supporting one side to fight the other?

The source provided is fairly new the training of Afghan troops by India was done back in 2004 or 2005 they are getting the results.
 
The Army officers said the 12 officers and support staff would be based in Kabul. It is not clear if they would be working at the Kabul Military Training Centre, where the basic training for soldiers is held.

I'm guessing that their help is based on Indian experiences of combating militants in Kashmir .
 
I repeat. Circumstantial evidence and Precedent. There are rogue elements within the ISI, and they have been accused of aiding the islamists from a variety of sources.

You seem to have a very good knowledge of ISI's structure. Not much of a secret organization, is it? Look, you're missing the point. Even if this WERE rogue elements in ISI, are these rogue elements so stupid that they believe India is going to withdraw from Afghanistan after a bomb attack that kills 4 soldiers?? Care to answer this with, "Yes I believe ISI rogue elements are stupid enough", or "No, I don't believe ISI rogue elements are stupid enough"?

On the other hand, there is little or no precedent or literature on India carrying out false flag operations and the like.

LOL! India carries out false flag operations CONSTANTLY.

Here's one example from Kashmir.

V. VIOLATIONS BY INDIAN GOVERNMENT FORCES: STATE-SPONSORED "RENEGADE" MILITIAS

Human Rights Watch/Asia obtained overwhelming evidence of the fact that these groups are organized, armed and protected by the Indian army and other security forces and operate under their command and protection, despite the Indian government's claims to the contrary
. The government uses the groups in a number of ways: as informers who watch and report on the activities of the militants; as spies to infiltrate existing militant organizations; or as members of paramilitary "renegade" organizations to attack members of Jamaat-e Islami and Hezb-ul Mujahidin and other militant groups.



The aim isn't to make Indians run away, but to seriously impede their operations by making them fear for their lives a lot more. Such an outcome would definitely help Pakistan.

Alright, so 4 Indians are killed in Afghanistan. Are you suggesting this will send the shivers down the Indian government and people, and they'll back out of any pro Northern Alliance policy they had? Tell me you didn't write that with a straight face.

How will it help Pakistan if the Indians fear for their lives a lot more in Afghanistan? It will cause, if anything a better security operation and cover for their personnel. Pakistan only wins by ELIMINATING Indian influence in Afghanistan or reducing it, not increasing it.

Again, I repeat, that why would Pakistan send mujaheddin and bomb Kashmir if it didn't expect to have any effect?

Can't you see a slight difference between sending thousands of mujahideen to wreak havoc in Kashmir (which has stopped now btw), and killing 4 Indians in a single attack? The single attack is so small it's inconsequential to India, but the PR it generates in the press makes it well worth the exercise.

Now if there were hundreds of attacks like this going on in Afghanistan, I'd agree, Pakistan is gaining something. But one attack on some Indians in Afghanistan will not achieve any of Pakistan's objectives, it will achieve GoA's and GoI's objectives though.

Irrespective of how effective bomb attacks are, they have been happening. That should put to rest any arguments that bomb attacks are stupid because they are ineffective, because bomb attacks have been happening, and the ISI has been doing them.

"ISI has been doing them". Nice to know you know this through your in depth knowledge.

Look. People bomb places for a reason, they don't just pick targets out at random. You ask yourself who benefitted the most from this attack, and it comes down to NA and GoI benefitted the most, not Pakistan or ISI.
 
Enough of accusations.

It does not solve anything.

It is time to act!
The only way I see Pakistan bothering to do this at an official level is if it's convinced that the attacks on Pakistan are emanating from this embassy.

Otherwise who in their right frame of mind can possibly think that with all of Pakistan's woes it would bother opening more fronts.
 
All too easy to set Pakistanis and Indians against each other - it's as if they are on autopilot -- it's just really sad and disgusting to see.

Don't be decieved - who wins what by these actions?? that's a good place to begin.
 

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