What is a strategic gain of JF-17 Thunder from Pakistan point of view

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Azad Bhai yaar aap bhi

Title of the Thread is What is a Strategic Gain JF17 thunder from Pakistan View points

And Poll is What is a Strategic priority JF17 thunder from Pakistan View point

So what is the thread really about ?? Gain or Priority ??

And why making the priority a poll ?? In priority you can't have just one option, you can have a multiple option strategy which can be given priority.

Plus so many options ?? Why can't having 150 JF-17s with AEW&C linkage be a priority combined together, both the tasks can have 1st priority and go side by side without effecting the program.

To be exact another one of the flawed topic thread by you, sorry to be saying that, but this thread has no purpose to be exact, your thread title and poll title are different and in reality you can't pursue one single priority option.

Sorry Tami I confused my own self when I wrote the title I was trying to ask about priority for project whats more important

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Satish I agree mostly with a few exceptions. The strategic benefit to Pakistan is in a specific context and starts off by lessening our dependence on the West for our air defence needs. This allows us to conduct our policies a bit differently than in the 90s when we were totally at the mercy of the Americans. After our policies diverged from theirs, we saw the devastating impact of their behaviour on our ability to maintain a credible conventional deterrence.

Secondly, regardless of the level of Pakistani participation in the development program of the JF-17, Pakistan has laid a foundation for work on aeronautical and avionics technologies. This is a huge strategic benefit to Pakistan because it will eventually allow us to develop a lot more (if not all) of the technologies for future usage on our own.

Both of these are significant strategic benefits within the context of air power.

Yes I missed those points...thank you for pointing out for those...I was thinking only of the strategic gains through external affairs and I totally forgot the internal affairs part.

 

[Dazzler]

The whole program began to achieve two aims.

1. To achieve a capability to manufacture high quality, reliable, sanction free and flexible fighter that could give a spontaneous reply to the adversary and provide enough confidence to PAF and other users.

2. To penetrate in the highly profitable yet monopolized fighter aircraft market which is dominated by a handful players (Western) for the last 60-80 years especially US and Russian ones. In doing so, also to gain sufficient support in major global issues and gather enough say from friendly countries.

Now, after achieving these two objectives which seem like a far cry at the moment, what will China and Pakistan get?

The international support and sympathy and what matters most in modern world, international influence ! Some might argue that by selling an affordable fighter, how will all this be achieved? The answer is to look back in the post WW2 era when the world was divided in two blocks. US and Soviet, how both these super powers influenced their friends and sympathizers? By both means, military and politic. China is a new player in international defense market and it is still much behind in both these dimensions but it has seen a humble and warm beginning in shape of Pakistan, Middle East and Africa.

JFT project holds a huge strategic importance for many reasons of which one is discussed above but it has provided a tool to PAF by which we are free to experiment, innovate, modernize, remake or modify what ever we want. This was never the case in the past and never before this flexibility and freedom was enjoyed by PAF. We can literally make it as capable as any advanced fourth generation fighter if required or we can keep it on a baseline model. So far, what I have observed, PAF is exercising the first option with current block. Block 2 will be a real treat as what we know till now, it will be an advanced, capable yet mainstay fighter and will not embrace the front line role because it was never meant to. This is a concerning point in Indian defense circles and i have seen few reports my self by some retired Indian military personnel, eho have shown a similar concern on JFT's induction and future prospect and it's use in a battle scenario.

 

[Donatello]

Whats the detail on the Pakistani BVR missile program? Like is it still on at PAC or AWC?

 

[Dazzler]

It is being developed

 

[BATMAN]

Sorry Tami I confused my own self when I wrote the title I was trying to ask about priority for project whats more important

IMO, PAF should not induct more than two squarden until AESA and BVR are available and improved RD-93 is available.
Untill than export all a/c from both assembly lines.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Interesting how ppl's oppinions are going towards strategic force multiplier aspect of JF17 thunder and Stealth capabilities

 

[dbc]

IMO, PAF should not induct more than two squarden until AESA and BVR are available and improved RD-93 is available.
Untill than export all a/c from both assembly lines.

I recently saw a thread titled (I paraphrase) "Is Thunder Pakistan's blunder" started on a defense forum I rarely visit. While here many express a diametrically opposite view, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. The JF-17 appeals to a niche segment - this affordable multi-role strike fighter has potential. But, the conservative nature of arms procurement means the adoption curve on a new platform is typically flat for many years until potential buyers have had time to assimilate and evaluate operational data and experience from other operators. This obviously means that Pakistan needs to take the lead role of an early adopter and demonstrate value to potential buyers.

 

[Patriot]

DBC, Just because it is not exported yet does not make it bad fighter much less a failure.Remember, the original requirement for JF was that PAF Needs a fighter that is BVR capable, sanction free and that can be modified by PAF according to it's requirement unlike western fighters as such it is highly successful for PAF.Now PAF can customize it for it's requirement.Sure exports are nice but even if it does not get even a single export it will be still a damn good fighter for PAF.Rafale is not exported yet does not make it failure.The forum you're referring to is full of bigots who have their personal opinion that any thing Pakistani have to bad..Exporting JF 17 was not the primary requirement of PAF to begin with.

 

[Donatello]

I recently saw a thread titled (I paraphrase) "Is Thunder Pakistan's blunder" started on a defense forum I rarely visit. While here many express a diametrically opposite view, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. The JF-17 appeals to a niche segment - this affordable multi-role strike fighter has potential. But, the conservative nature of arms procurement means the adoption curve on a new platform is typically flat for many years until potential buyers have had time to assimilate and evaluate operational data and experience from other operators. This obviously means that Pakistan needs to take the lead role of an early adopter and demonstrate value to potential buyers.

Were you living under the rock for the past few years?


Because as of yet, China is not using JF-17 because it was made and tailored for PAF. Pakistan has taken a lead role and with the opening and expansion of assembly lines that role is intact. PAF wants to fulfill it's own ambitions with JF-17, being a F-16 operator, they have created a jet which can any day fight a F-16. No wonder countries like Egypt are eager to buy JF-17.

Everything for JF-17 is on track and as i have personally talked to many PAF people who worked in China and are now back in Pakistan, everyone of them says the JF-17 is the cost effective future.


If you break down the cost of the F-16 BLK 52+, it's no where near the value for money. Not even Rafale, Typhoon or SU30, because none of these have been battle proven and hence cannot be valued so high. JF-17 offers cheaper alternative at safer and much more achievable combat scenarios. Pakistan's air superiority fighter and strike fighter would be J-10, work on which is under way.

Both JF-17 and J-10 are capable enough and Pakistan being the first user for them apart from China shows how much lead Pakistan has already taken and achieved.

(Perhaps the half-hearted purchase of F-16s, even though sanctions are lifted now, shows how much Pakistan trusts JF-17 and J-10s.)

 

[Donatello]

In my humble opinion..pakistan should induct these in batches spread over atleast 15 years..so that they will have enough time to integrate new techs. in later batches while upgrading the others..

Dude, you can always upgrade later.

Examples:-

PAF F-16s BLK A/B which are being brought up to BLK 50 standard.
IAF Mig 29 which are being upgraded to SMT standard.

PAF ROSE Mirage III/V


and countless others.


We need numbers so that the fragile airframes of Mirage and F-7 can finally be put to rest.

 

[BATMAN]

I recently saw a thread titled (I paraphrase) "Is Thunder Pakistan's blunder" started on a defense forum I rarely visit. While here many express a diametrically opposite view, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. The JF-17 appeals to a niche segment - this affordable multi-role strike fighter has potential. But, the conservative nature of arms procurement means the adoption curve on a new platform is typically flat for many years until potential buyers have had time to assimilate and evaluate operational data and experience from other operators. This obviously means that Pakistan needs to take the lead role of an early adopter and demonstrate value to potential buyers.

Middle ground can be any thing but truth.
I didn't quite get your drift but i hope you know JFT has been tested as thorough as it can get.
PAF is leading and will always lead the in induction.
Weapons integrated so far are already tested/proven on other platforms as well, so will be the future weapons ... like mica etc.
About potential customer PAF not need to loose its sleeps... as JFT is a reality and any one wish to buy it can come and test it as per his requirements and those who need not to buy can please themselves with what so ever they wish to believe.
At least there will be no kill switches, tracking devices and political strings attached with JFT.

 

[dbc]

DBC, Just because it is not exported yet does not make it bad fighter much less a failure.

I never said it was a bad fighter and you're preaching to the choir, just incase someone else misunderstands me. "Preaching to the choir" means ..... http://www.goenglish.com/preachingtothechoir.asp

When I said the truth is somewhere in the middle I meant it's is between "blunder" and the fictional omnipotent X-Wing. I was responding to Batman's suggestion of limited induction, implying the adoption rate for new products typically follows a classical bell curve.

The adoption rate can be improved by inducting large numbers so prospective buyers can make an informed decision based on the operational experience of the largest operator(PAF).

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

All the planes

Rafeal french are flying over their own country
Typhoons 6:1 advantage marketing gimick lol every one is cancelling orders for it
F22 going up against ? what .. flying carpet Sukhoi

JF17 is running real missions daily in Afghanistan

All of the fighters have not been really tested , in a real battle

They never encounterd S300 , they never went againt fighters 0.5 generation behind or equal , mostly their marketing mumbo jumbo is all that is visible in videos and brochures. The only plane that is tested is either F16 / F15 , what they do have is marketing companies , making press releases out to state yes the fighters are capable.

And the manufactureres claim "based on estimates" we think the planes are better than F16 / F15


For Pakistan - having 200-300 fighters , brand new , with latest avionics gives a great advantage

The plane is there to do its job !!!

I think our prime immediate focus should be to increase production of JF17 Thunder - ASAP

JF17 thunder's missiles are capable as any fighter out there
The engine offers ample speed to engage and fight other planes
The plane is equiped with guided laser bombs

The only thing we lack is may be AESA and that is about it -

 

[Kompromat]

Lets get our own house straight first before exporting it.

If we want to pursue exports as it apparently seems being done , we should confirm the orders and Install another facility at Kamra to meet the orders.

By having done this we have created a solid industry base , we have created thousands of jobs , we have gained experience of Air craft manufacturing and trained a sheer number of Engineers and Techs in this field whom we could utilize in future developments with China.

I would support this idea of Two way strategy - while we can leave the next block development to PAC and CATIC to be done in China.

I would agree with Nabil on his point of JF-17 being SinoPak's "Strategic Ace in a hole" .