Were Muslim Rajputs also honour bound to commit Saka and Jauhar when faced with overwhelming odds?

[Indus Pakistan]

No one and in no condition you suffer you can commit suicide.

You can and Muslims do. Only after do they face judgement. Which is not your problem or mine but of the individual who has done so.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

There is no record of Soomras/Soomros ever committing such a ritual, their rule lasted a long time and were preceded by another native Sindhi Dynasty.

Nor has mass rape being used as a tool of war by any Muslim army.

That's not relevant to the discussion.My proposition is that significant portion of Rajput ethnogenesis is derived from the acts of Saka and Jauhar when facing overwhelming odds. Saka and Jauhar precede Islam in the subcontinent by a 1,000 years

What exactly happened in Sindh when the fiercely proud Soomras and Sammas lost to Mongolic Arghuns in battle?

 

[Indos]

Some muslims are more equal than others....I am sorry but Indonesians are not as celebrated in the global Muslim lore as the 16 great Turkic dynasties (most of them being Muslims)

@Indus Pakistan

LOL why Indonesia is mentioned here ??

Indonesia is located in South East Asia so that they are less noticed by other Muslim as Indonesia is far away from Middle East. Indonesian Muslim are also late in embracing Islam so that their Sultanate are less known but at least they can defeat Hindu/Buddish empire inside the country.

Ancient Indonesia also produce largest empire in South East Asia (Majapahit) which has territory that include Indonesia, Philippine, Malaysia, and some part of Thailand. Unlike Baghdad that was burn by Mongol, Indonesian kingdoms at that time can expel Mongol back to China, and it is actually Mongol + China that we were fighting during Yuan Dinasty. The difference is that they are not Muslim yet at that time, so it is not part of Islamic history that can be celebrated by Muslim around the world.

If you know history, you should have known Soekarno. Many Asian see him as sort of respected leader, this is why he can initiated Non Block Movement and the first conference is in Indonesia with majority of Asian countries become the members.

The problem is Indonesian leader after Soekarno doesnt have international ambition like him and only active politically for South East Asian region. Nevertheless Indonesia is a regional power in South East Asia and has contributed its leadership in South East Asia peace process just like in Cambodia, Moro (Philippine), and Thailand Cambodia border conflict. ASEAN secretariat is also located in Indonesia. We are well known in our region but not with Muslim in other part of the world, quite understandable as big news about Muslim usually happen in Middle East and Central Asia and that region is not part of our influence.

There is chance that in the future Indonesia will have leader from Islamist group as Indonesian Muslim becomes more conservative day by day. If we have such leader then our weight in the Muslim world IMO will be increasing rapidly, he can be viewed as Muslim view Erdogan and Mursi who are both coming from Islamist.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

LOL why Indonesia is mentioned here ??

Indonesia is located in South East Asia so that they are less noticed by other Muslim as Indonesia is far away from Middle East. Indonesian Muslim are also late in embracing Islam so that their Sultanate are less known but at least they can defeat Hindu/Buddish empire inside the country.

Ancient Indonesia also produce largest empire in South East Asia (Majapahit) which has territory that include Indonesia, Philippine, Malaysia, and some part of Thailand. Unlike Baghdad that was burn by Mongol, Indonesian kingdoms at that time can expel Mongol back to China, and it is actually Mongol + China that we were fighting during Yuan Dinasty. The difference is that they are not Muslim yet at that time, so it is not part of Islamic history that can be celebrated by Muslim around the world.

If you know history, you should have known Soekarno. Many Asian see him as sort of respected leader, this is why he can initiated Non Block Movement and the first conference is in Indonesia with majority of Asian countries become the members.

The problem is Indonesian leader after Soekarno doesnt have international ambition like him and only active politically for South East Asian region. Nevertheless Indonesia is a regional power in South East Asia and has contributed its leadership in South East Asia peace process just like in Cambodia, Moro (Philippine), and Thailand Cambodia border conflict. ASEAN secretariat is also located in Indonesia. We are well known in our region but not with Muslim in other part of the world, quite understandable as big news about Muslim usually happen in Middle East and Central Asia and that region is not part of our influence.

There is chance that in the future Indonesia will have leader from Islamist group as Indonesian Muslim becomes more conservative day by day. If we have such leader then our weight in the Muslim world IMO will be increasing rapidly, he can be viewed as Muslim view Erdogan and Mursi who are both coming from Islamist.

That's my point... history/architecture of pre-Islamic Indonesia is very iconic and is well known around the world, much like how Pre-European Mexico is one of the top five countries in the world in terms of historical structures..But post-colonization Mexican history is just a knock-off of Spanish history. Post-Islamic Indonesia and its deeds are neither well known in the non-Islamic world nor well celebrated in the Islamic world like the conquering of Spain,Constantinople etc etc

 

[GumNaam]

A Rajput may not possess much in this world but then again does he need anything other than his lineage,his ancestry and his honour? An honour ,which has been carefully concocted in the crucible of the desert for over a thousand years. Colonial British writers had a much more innocent fascination regarding the Rajputs(and also the Pashtuns), before they repurposed their fascination for Rajput ethnography into making the philosophy of the martial races...anyways there gas been Muslim Rajput dynasties too...prime being the Soomras of Sindh ....Rajput men were honour bound to go out ritualistically and make a heroic last stand outsude the fort (Saka) in face of inevitable defeat while Rajput women were honour bound to commit Jauhar simultaneously within the fortress...It seems here lies the genesis of Rajput identity ....A code of honour no lesser than the seppuku committing Samurais of the Great Yamato Race....The Jauhar Step well would be the heart of any Rajput fortress construction .....

It seems the Rajput was more worried that loss of honour would pollute the bloodline rather than the typical Anglo-Saxon preoccupation that miscegnation would pollute the bloodline ...The first Anglo-Saxon ethnographers encountering the Rajputs must have been stupifued at this much different self-conception of identity

How did Muslim Rajput react when the tide inevitably turned against their favour with the onslaught of lightly Islamicized Mongol dynasties like the Arghun?

Short answer...NO! Islam trumps all beliefs & for a Muslim, being rajput (or anything else for that matter) is merely a family identity, nothing more. My wife's family, by lineage, are brahmin, something I did not know until 5 years after marriage...while I am direct syed descendant, being Muslims, the lineage meant absolutely nothing, ZILCH, during marriage so much so that they didn't even bother mentioning that they are some sort of an upper brahmin caste, that's how irrelevant lineage is for Muslims.

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

Sheikh sb why such hate for rajputs. Do you know how many rajputs have nishan Haider? Do you have any other criteria to measure our bravery than let us know? Out of 10 nishan Haider 7 are rajputs.

Bhai may Allah keep me away from HATE my mother side is rajput so no one hate his mother here.
this music we been hearing alot from east side as well that rajputs are brave they have done this and that which might be true but

Sheikh sb why such hate for rajputs. Do you know how many rajputs have nishan Haider? Do you have any other criteria to measure our bravery than let us know? Out of 10 nishan Haider 7 are rajputs.

My mother side is rajput so who can hate his own mom, Also hating my muslim brother is not me not in million years.
Nishan E Haider is sign or bravery yes Pakistan recognise 10 rajputs bravery but tell me they are the only 10 who fought alone and won.
We have been hearing this music from east alot that rajput are brave very brave too much brave they have this and that same song picked up by our muslim brothers and finding small small achievements and highlighting them.
Brother these things maybe unite india but its not how we do as muslim i said a true muslim is more brave cuz i dont wanna mentions rituals which was sign of bravery still some places stupidity is sign of bravery.
Islam unite us we are here only cuz of islam and for bravery or anything els we have to follow what Allah and his Prophet (PBUH) says.

 

[lastofthepatriots]

There is no record of Soomras/Soomros ever committing such a ritual, their rule lasted a long time and were preceded by another native Sindhi Dynasty.

Nor has mass rape being used as a tool of war by any Muslim army.

Don’t know know about Rajputs or fire but you don’t have to go back that far. At the time of partition Punjabis and Sikhs did kill their daughters to protect their honor.

 

[Manidabest]

well things did happened during partition though

 

[Kabira]

Don’t know know about Rajputs or fire but you don’t have to go back that far. At the time of partition Punjabis and Sikhs did kill their daughters to protect their honor.

OP is talking about some hindu ritual of hindu rajputs.

 

[zain41]

Why wouldn’t the women just fight alongside the men instead of committing suicide ..

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

anyways there gas been Muslim Rajput dynasties too...prime being the Soomras of Sindh

After a long time researching this specific topic. I have concluded that Rajput was never an actual 'biradari' (tribe), nor were they ever an ethno-cultural body.

It was a title earned by tribes that gained control over large regions, and later became an identity of it's own.

In the same sense that titles such as Raja, Khan, Malik, Shaikh, Jam, etc... given to specific families became identities/tribes of their own.

A "Rajput" from Potohar (in Northern Punjab) has absolutely no links, whether culturally, genetically, linguistically, historically, etc... to lets say... a Rajput from Rajasthan.

Moreover, there is no historical evidence to suggest any of the tribes that are now claimed to be Rajput such as the Soomras, Sammas, Gakhars, etc... identified themselves as such until recently.

.Rajputs be they of Hindu or Muslim placed heavy importance on ancestry and lineages

That is common in all tribes of Pakistan...

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

Why wouldn’t the women just fight alongside the men instead of committing suicide ..

they call it owner brother and bravery. which has nothing to do with this.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Does this mean Muslim Rajputs say have committed Saka and Jauhar prior to Aurangzeb?

Rajput men were honour bound to go out ritualistically and make a heroic last stand outsude the fort (Saka) in face of inevitable defeat while Rajput women were honour bound to commit Jauhar simultaneously within the fortress

This was a pre-Islamic tradition followed by most tribes of the Indus Valley. The Greek invaders began to record such practices as soon as they entered the Suleiman mountains and saw many instances during the Cophen campaign (in modern-day Swat).

It is theorized that this practice stemmed from the belief that one was not worthy of life, if they were incapable of protecting their women. Traces of this belief can still be found within the concept of honor killing that still persists in parts of Pakistan. Once seeing the battle was lost, women were expected to commit mass-suicide as to prevent them from falling into the hands of enemy as the men would carry out a desperate last stand.

These practices died out among the mainstream population with the spread of Buddhism, though Kings and Noblemen were still expected to die rather than return in defeat as to prevent the honor of the tribe/clan being tarnished.

This is recorded in the Chachnama of the Buddhist Rajan Sahiras of Sindh:

As the great God willed it, all of a sudden an army of the king of Nímrúz made an invasion on his country, and entered Kirmán. When King Sahiras got this news, he issued from the fort of Ráoi with his main army, with the steadfast purpose of meeting the enemy by advanced marches. He soon came up to them and the battle commenced. After a number of brave soldiers and illustrious warriors was slain on both sides, the people of Fars, placing full trust in the direction of the All Powerful God and resigning everything to him, made a vigorous assault. The army of Rai Sahiras, completely overpowered and overthrown, took to flight. Sahìras, however, to prevent ignominy, stood there fighting with the enemy till he was killed. The King of Fars returned to Nimruz, and Rai Sáhasi son of Rai Sahiras ascended the throne of his father and was confirmed in his kingdom. All the four governors who had been appointed by his father made obeisance to him, and behaved obediently and agreeably towards him. They surrendered their countries together, with their treasures to him, and did not attempt to swerve from their fealty. Owing to his excellent policy and majestic dignity, Rai Sáhasi brought the kingdom under his firm control.

 

[War Thunder]

Saka and Jauhar were committed by the towns of lower Indus basin when besieged by Alexander ...All those places are in modern day Pakistan
No I am not a Rajput... If you must know I am Ugra Kshatriya

Muslim Rajputs did not face such overwhelming odds tbh.
All of my ancestors were Hindus and Mongol Babur overcame them in Sialkot after three consecutive assaults. Most of them died there, specially the women and children, others got displaced.

What I know is my grand grand fathers came to the area where I was born while it was empty and took it over. Two brothers marked their area while riding on horse back. Much of it was later given away as donations to the poor or gifts to the Brits. Yet, my father still inherited a great deal of land.
They became Muslims some generations after that, while still carrying influence and rule over vast areas.

They were Scythians, coming to the land and establishing the Chandravansh.
The family tree is still available in the Sialkot fort while the Brits took the guy who used to maintain the record with them and appointed him in some Museum there or so I heard. I was called Ra something...

 

[Jaanbaz]

North Indians aka modern day Pakistanis faced invasions similar to that of what the Yazidis faced when ISIS attacked them, those with a brain and a bit of history know what I'm talking about.