Turk-Pak partnership goes beyond historical bonds

[NA71]

Well not so long ago, there was and still, an open invitation to Pakistan to join TFX. Pakistan Turkey shares more than usual brotherly relations.

Turkish President is coming next month ...we might see TFX MoU signing

 

[The Eagle]

Turkish President is coming next month ...we might see TFX MoU signing

We expect however, I wouldn't be surprised that PAC/PAF may participate in TFX to certain extent which came help us into AZM in broader aspects. These are new times where taking part into certain program does not means that the same party will be buying whole product. Secondly, if we may ignore the very fact that AZM will be our own product with input of our friends/brothers; TFX is another reality & available option for Pakistan. No doubt that there were talks and then invitation as well to Pakistan to join TFX program. Either alleged MoU is a full scale participation or to the extent where we will be gaining knowledge as well as support viz a viz our expertise to provided; in lieu of growth of our own AZM.

 

[StormBreaker]

We expect however, I wouldn't be surprised that PAC/PAF may participate in TFX to certain extent which came help us into AZM in broader aspects. These are new times where taking part into certain program does not means that the same party will be buying whole product. Secondly, if we may ignore the very fact that AZM will be our own product with input of our friends/brothers; TFX is another reality & available option for Pakistan. No doubt that there were talks and then invitation as well to Pakistan to join TFX program. Either alleged MoU is a full scale participation or to the extent where we will be gaining knowledge as well as support viz a viz our expertise to provided; in lieu of growth of our own AZM.

I think, TFX shouldn’t be counted out.

Currently we have a diverse fleet. We have options, compatibility differences, various rival markets available hence we utilize our different platforms for such specific compatibilities.

I always wanted PAF to at least go on with the single Engine TF-X design to serve as replacement for Thunders in long term as well as fill in the number game while AZM be the heavy hitter along with possibly TAF TFX Variant of dual engine.

TFX has a canard delta design as well.

Joining TFX will prove very useful for us in terms of learning, business potential, diversification.

 

[Ultima Thule]

TFX has a canard delta design as well.

but final design of TFX is conventional (without any Canard fore plane)

 

[The Eagle]

I think, TFX shouldn’t be counted out.

Currently we have a diverse fleet. We have options, compatibility differences, various rival markets available hence we utilize our different platforms for such specific compatibilities.

I always wanted PAF to at least go on with the single Engine TF-X design to serve as replacement for Thunders in long term as well as fill in the number game while AZM be the heavy hitter along with possibly TAF TFX Variant of dual engine.

TFX has a canard delta design as well.

Joining TFX will prove very useful for us in terms of learning, business potential, diversification.

No option can be counted out. New strategic games & tactics are all about diversification & advancement within limitations & affordability. No one ever believed that one day, PAC/PAF will be flying a capable AC i.e. JF-17 Thunder. Most of naysayers are now not just surprised but also, being shocked. Speaking of single engine TAI TFX design, one can assume the way that first world countries are replacing F-16s with JSF-35. It is a fact that we don't have such luxury like first world countries but on other hand; whatever we did with JF-17 Thunder to fulfill our most requirement & lessen the work load from advanced Fighter Jet; it suggests that we can still do so by opting for different yet capable enough platform to fill gaps in regards to 4.5++ and 5th Gen Air Craft.

As far as the calculation goes; PAF/PAC will go for 4.5++ Gen Fighter at first to compliment 5th Gen and that by saying; I assume NGF and then 5th Gen AZM. The gap will bridge technology induction, self reliance, building tactics and advancing strategies as well. These sort of programs aren't mere couple of years build but in-fact takes time & money as well as resident talent/R&D. While we started Thunder Program; nobody could have imagine what Pakistan achieved throughout the time we spent on the same. So, in other words; TFX exactly or not, such participation & collaborations will always come handy. I am certain that we have far more options to invite expertise beside Chinese and all I can see that China, Turkey & Russia as well being invited in respective domains for AZM as well. What we did with Turkish Milgem is by turning it into Jinnah Class frigate for immediate requirement and then we are looking at ToT as well as training etc so that Pakistan will continue with in-house production which will ultimately help us to come with our product by next. Conclusively, one cannot think in isolated manners when it comes to such kind of bigger projects having its own strategic significance.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

No option can be counted out. New strategic games & tactics are all about diversification & advancement within limitations & affordability. No one ever believed that one day, PAC/PAF will be flying a capable AC i.e. JF-17 Thunder. Most of naysayers are now not just surprised but also, being shocked. Speaking of single engine TAI TFX design, one can assume the way that first world countries are replacing F-16s with JSF-35. It is a fact that we don't have such luxury like first world countries but on other hand; whatever we did with JF-17 Thunder to fulfill our most requirement & lessen the work load from advanced Fighter Jet; it suggests that we can still do so by opting for different yet capable enough platform to fill gaps in regards to 4.5++ and 5th Gen Air Craft.

As far as the calculation goes; PAF/PAC will go for 4.5++ Gen Fighter at first to compliment 5th Gen and that by saying; I assume NGF and then 5th Gen AZM. The gap will bridge technology induction, self reliance, building tactics and advancing strategies as well. These sort of programs aren't mere couple of years build but in-fact takes time & money as well as resident talent/R&D. While we started Thunder Program; nobody could have imagine what Pakistan achieved throughout the time we spent on the same. So, in other words; TFX exactly or not, such participation & collaborations will always come handy. I am certain that we have far more options to invite expertise beside Chinese and all I can see that China, Turkey & Russia as well being invited in respective domains for AZM as well. What we did with Turkish Milgem is by turning it into Jinnah Class frigate for immediate requirement and then we are looking at ToT as well as training etc so that Pakistan will continue with in-house production which will ultimately help us to come with our product by next. Conclusively, one cannot think in isolated manners when it comes to such kind of bigger projects having its own strategic significance.

IMO the 4+/4.5 gen fighter would at best be a continually upgraded JF-17. Project AZM will remain the PAF's primary FGFA option, though it might invest in the TF-X to secure some of its technology, it is unlikely to fully commit to that program until the prototype is flying, at which point, it'll review.

 

[LeGenD]

Filling the vacuum left by Washington, Ankara came to the rescue and helped upgrade a batch of 41 F-16 fighter jets for the Pakistan Air Force, manufacturing engines as well as spare parts for the aircraft. And after a plethora of significant defense deals in 2018, Turkey has become Pakistan's second biggest arms supplier after China.

This wasn't possible without support of Washington DC.

Clueless author.

 

[StormBreaker]

but final design of TFX is conventional (without any Canard fore plane)

TF-X is a project that is in its very infancy.

A new major partner could demand another simultaneous design during development.

So TFX can be exploited to more than just one design, making it better for potential customers to think of combinations

 

[NA71]

There are potential two programs on the table...with emphasis on "Diversification"...it is no secret that some elementary development has been made on B4....and PAF/PAC is taking it on a new Turkish route....same applies to Turks....they are also sensing the strategic development on fast pace. so B4 might have got their attention too.

TFX program will be joined by Malaysia & Pakistan and possible another country.

We would see B4 before TFX...proto type... follows by glimpse of Project AZM .....note it.

 

[Ultima Thule]

TF-X is a project that is in its very infancy.

A new major partner could demand another simultaneous design during development.

So TFX can be exploited to more than just one design, making it better for potential customers to think of combinations

As far as i know TAI selected conventional design much like F-22

 

[dBSPL]

It depends on what PAF planners are thinking. If they want to go with Single Engine plane, Turkey can help build that. If PAF is interested in twin-engine plane then Pakistan can work with Turkey on current TF-X C100 or C200 design.

What is C100 and C200 ? Where did you see ?

 

[jupiter2007]

I think, TFX shouldn’t be counted out.

Currently we have a diverse fleet. We have options, compatibility differences, various rival markets available hence we utilize our different platforms for such specific compatibilities.

I always wanted PAF to at least go on with the single Engine TF-X design to serve as replacement for Thunders in long term as well as fill in the number game while AZM be the heavy hitter along with possibly TAF TFX Variant of dual engine.

TFX has a canard delta design as well.

Joining TFX will prove very useful for us in terms of learning, business potential, diversification.

What is C100 and C200 ? Where did you see ?

Just search google, There are 3 different designs for TF-X project.

 

[StormBreaker]

Just search google, There are 3 different designs for TF-X project.

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No option can be counted out. New strategic games & tactics are all about diversification & advancement within limitations & affordability. No one ever believed that one day, PAC/PAF will be flying a capable AC i.e. JF-17 Thunder. Most of naysayers are now not just surprised but also, being shocked. Speaking of single engine TAI TFX design, one can assume the way that first world countries are replacing F-16s with JSF-35. It is a fact that we don't have such luxury like first world countries but on other hand; whatever we did with JF-17 Thunder to fulfill our most requirement & lessen the work load from advanced Fighter Jet; it suggests that we can still do so by opting for different yet capable enough platform to fill gaps in regards to 4.5++ and 5th Gen Air Craft.

As far as the calculation goes; PAF/PAC will go for 4.5++ Gen Fighter at first to compliment 5th Gen and that by saying; I assume NGF and then 5th Gen AZM. The gap will bridge technology induction, self reliance, building tactics and advancing strategies as well. These sort of programs aren't mere couple of years build but in-fact takes time & money as well as resident talent/R&D. While we started Thunder Program; nobody could have imagine what Pakistan achieved throughout the time we spent on the same. So, in other words; TFX exactly or not, such participation & collaborations will always come handy. I am certain that we have far more options to invite expertise beside Chinese and all I can see that China, Turkey & Russia as well being invited in respective domains for AZM as well. What we did with Turkish Milgem is by turning it into Jinnah Class frigate for immediate requirement and then we are looking at ToT as well as training etc so that Pakistan will continue with in-house production which will ultimately help us to come with our product by next. Conclusively, one cannot think in isolated manners when it comes to such kind of bigger projects having its own strategic significance.

IMO the 4+/4.5 gen fighter would at best be a continually upgraded JF-17. Project AZM will remain the PAF's primary FGFA option, though it might invest in the TF-X to secure some of its technology, it is unlikely to fully commit to that program until the prototype is flying, at which point, it'll review.

What is C100 and C200 ? Where did you see ?

Thank you @jupiter2007 for posting the variant pics and names.

Amazed at you @dBSPL for not knowning completely about your own NATIONAL LEVEL PROJECT !!! We Pakistanis on the other hand peel of skins from small piece of information to satisfy our cravings to Accept our advancements and successes !!!

Come to important point here,
@The Eagle @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @jupiter2007 ,

Airomerix did hint about our possible interest or involvement in TFX in future.

Now,

At the moment, Turkey has accepted C-100 design of TF-X 3 conceptual designs.

C-100 design is a dual engine, canardless, non-delta wing design similar to F-22 or J-31.

If Pakistan gets involved in TFX, AND given that the design involved will be JUST C-100 then i think we won’t be involved as full-partners rather just an experience seeking venture and possibly we would be interested in the systems instead of acquiring the aircraft.

REASON :

The design C-100 is similar to J-31 which is flying from 7 years and has seen atleast 3-4 prototypes and comes from a country with matured avionics, missiles and 5th Generation background and expertise if not very matured. And yet, we are not at the moment showing interest in J-31.

However, we have AZM which will be 5+ gen design, C-130 tail painting hinted similarities to YF-23 and FACS concept. It will be a dual engine medium/heavy fighter and most probably air superiority role.

Why would be get involved in TFX C-100 when we can get J-31 half a decade before (and i am not mentioning J-35 even which is not revealed completely but i am expecting high from that since it will be borne from J-31 project).

So Pak in TFX means

1. Join in order to take Turkey on tables to bring Single engine Fighter development on parallel to C-100 dual engine. This Single engine could in turn be our NGF which will compliment AZM in future.
2. Join TFX to take experience along with TAI and ASELSAN to co-study sensor fusion, 5th gen principles and how to improvise for 5+/6th gen. China itself is currently studying the further room for improvements and advancements on how to step up into future generation. So Pakistan will get chance to learn from Brains of China as well as brains from Turkey. This knowledge in turn will be used on AZM and parallel to TFX, AZM will fly some day as well. This scenario doesn’t involve Pakistan Procuring TFX but just learning from it. Knowledge from Critical studies of 6th Gen, Avionics, Lasers, advanced navigation and Machine Learning and AI as well as advancing EW.
3. As for the third possibility, We might get interested into Turkish Engine project which was a joint effort between RR and Turkey. RR turned its back on turks. Russia interested to get involved. We could get a license production of this engine as well as become partners (too costly for this to happen and especially when the project itself isn’t certain).

 

[Beast]

Turkish TF-X will go into production by 2025. We can work with Turkey and build those locally. TF-X will be more powerful than F-18 and will be very close to 5 generations.

No offence but it's a pipedream of your deadline. First of all, engine is already a massive problem for both Pakistan and turkey. Especially European and US are now wary of turkey.. Remember T-129 gunship and F-35 being block. People need to be realistic at the end of the day.

I dont get it...Isnt JF-17 still a joint fighter between China and Pakistan at the moment..Is China okay with a third party regardless its Turkey or some other nation..

No, China will never allow turkey to join the project. Not even the source code will be given.

 

[StormBreaker]

Turkish TF-X will go into production by 2025. We can work with Turkey and build those locally. TF-X will be more powerful than F-18 and will be very close to 5 generations.

Come on !!!
Don’t be stupid man,
2025 seems like nothing, it will take PAF to make Block 4 by 2025 let alone TAI making TFX and that too into Production.

I reckon, even first prototype won’t fly at least before late 2026 or 2027.

Turkey is facing issues, Turkey itself claims that TFX will go to production by 2032, meanwhile, Turkey will go for russian solutions to fill up the technological gap That has been left by being abandoned from JSF.