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Top Chinese officials ordered attack on Google:Wikileaks

Are you confused?
Nope...But apparently YOU are.

The issue here is not the law for certainly you can make any law you wish. The Chinese government can make a law that says all government employees must be right-handed. The issue here is the reasonings behind any law.

Why go after child pornographers but not those who called Bush a 'murderer' or Clinton all those awful names regarding his sexual peccadilloes? So why is the Chinese government so sensitive about any opinions that may cast the communists in such bad light? If Google want to do business in China, then yes, Chinese laws must be obeyed. But that does not immunized any Chinese or American law regarding Internet censorship from criticisms. May be I should give you lessons regarding laws...??? :D
 
Nope...But apparently YOU are.

The issue here is not the law for certainly you can make any law you wish. The Chinese government can make a law that says all government employees must be right-handed. The issue here is the reasonings behind any law.

Why go after child pornographers but not those who called Bush a 'murderer' or Clinton all those awful names regarding his sexual peccadilloes? So why is the Chinese government so sensitive about any opinions that may cast the communists in such bad light? If Google want to do business in China, then yes, Chinese laws must be obeyed. But that does not immunized any Chinese or American law regarding Internet censorship from criticisms. May be I should give you lessons regarding laws...??? :D

Hmmm I guess you forgetting the fact that I didn't write the article.
 
China defends internet censorship

By Michael Bristow
BBC News, Beijing


Google pulled out of mainland China in March over censorship rules
China has defended its right to censor the internet in a document laying out the government's attitude towards the web.
It says the country has the right to govern the internet according to its own rules inside its borders.
The white paper also reveals just how fast the internet has developed in China in the 16 years since it was first connected.
By the end of last year the country had 384m internet users.
'Freedom of speech'
The white paper, released on Tuesday, called the internet "a crystallisation of human wisdom".
But in the document the government lays out some of the reasons why its citizens cannot get access to all of that wisdom.
It says it wants to curb the harmful effects of illegal information on state security, public interests and children.
"Laws and regulations clearly prohibit the spread of information that contains content subverting state power, undermining national unity [or] infringing upon national honour and interests," it says.
Websites, blogs and information deemed sensitive by the Chinese government is routinely blocked using a range of technological tools, dubbed the Great Firewall of China.
The country's state secrets law has just been amended in a way that makes internet and telecommunications firms now responsible for helping the government police the web.
Despite that, China still maintains that its people have unfettered access to the internet. "Chinese citizens fully enjoy freedom of speech on the internet," says the white paper.
In another section, China reaffirms its determination to govern the internet within its borders according to its own rules.
"Within Chinese territory the internet is under the jurisdiction of Chinese sovereignty. The internet sovereignty of China should be respected and protected," it says.
It adds that foreign individuals and firms can use the internet in China, but they must abide by the country's laws.
Google recently pulled out of mainland China, saying it was no longer willing to accept government censorship. Its Chinese-language services are now based in Hong Kong.
The document also reveals just how fast the internet is developing in China. The government hopes that nearly half the population will have access to the internet within five years.
That figure is nearly 30% at the moment.


BBC News - China defends internet censorship
 
Hmmm I guess you forgetting the fact that I didn't write the article.
Still skirting the real issue, eh? :lol:

As the other gentleman brought on...

BBC News - China defends internet censorship
It says it wants to curb the harmful effects of illegal information on state security, public interests and children.

"Laws and regulations clearly prohibit the spread of information that contains content subverting state power, undermining national unity [or] infringing upon national honour and interests," it says.

Websites, blogs and information deemed sensitive by the Chinese government is routinely blocked using a range of technological tools, dubbed the Great Firewall of China.
Now...Do you think that calling Bill Clinton a 'rapist' or GW Bush a 'murderer' or General David Petraeus 'Betray US' qualify as -- subverting state power, undermining national unity [or] infringing upon national honour and interests ? China is fully within rights to call it so. But it is a matter of curiosity that why is there such a difference in views. Why are Americans willing to tolerate such insults to their country's leaders and institutions but not the Chinese communist party leadership? Does Canada, which I assume your residence location, have such laws equivalent to China and are they enforced by the Canadian government? Criticizing Google and praising Baidu is a convenient distraction.
 
Still skirting the real issue, eh? :lol:

As the other gentleman brought on...

BBC News - China defends internet censorship

Now...Do you think that calling Bill Clinton a 'rapist' or GW Bush a 'murderer' or General David Petraeus 'Betray US' qualify as -- subverting state power, undermining national unity [or] infringing upon national honour and interests ? China is fully within rights to call it so. But it is a matter of curiosity that why is there such a difference in views. Why are Americans willing to tolerate such insults to their country's leaders and institutions but not the Chinese communist party leadership? Does Canada, which I assume your residence location, have such laws equivalent to China and are they enforced by the Canadian government? Criticizing Google and praising Baidu is a convenient distraction.

I agree with everything you say.

now what?
 
China is fully within rights to call it so. But it is a matter of curiosity that why is there such a difference in views. Why are Americans willing to tolerate such insults to their country's leaders and institutions but not the Chinese communist party leadership?

I believe I have answered this several times before but I guess I can do it again.

Historically in China, the greater good of society is deemed as much more important than individual liberties, it has been this way for a long time.

This sometimes applies in America too, though to much less of an extent. One example would be the suspension of the age old principle of "Habeas corpus" (release from unlawful detention) regarding the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, who were denied the right to a free trial.

As to your second point, you might have noticed, China is a one-party state. Which means different rules apply in comparison to that of a multi-party state. This is perhaps the explanation as to why the Chinese government seems more sensitive to criticism than others, although I cannot say for sure.
 
Now we can say that the Chinese government is overly sensitive and is wrong on Google.

Disagree. I think the CCP took the correct actions regarding Google.

Google made it clear that they did not want to follow Chinese laws.

Now they could have attempted to lobby the government to change those laws, however difficult that would have been. They instead chose to bluff the Chinese government and threaten to leave China.

But they couldn't leave that market share behind right? So even though they failed to move the CCP... they still stayed behind in Hong Kong, and even today they are still trying to keep hold of that market share.
 
Good.

Now we can say that the Chinese government is overly sensitive.

Yes

is wrong on Google.

No

The Google thing was much more a business decision than a stand against censorship. They had complied with China's censorship rules for nearly a decade. So why the change of heart all of a sudden? Do you think they would have walked away if they had 50% market cap? 60% market cap?

I doubt it, and I hate being lied to.
 
The Google thing was much more a business decision than a stand against censorship. They had complied with China's censorship rules for nearly a decade. So why the change of heart all of a sudden? Do you think they would have walked away if they had 50% market cap? 60% market cap?

I doubt it, and I hate being lied to.

That's right, Google played ball with Chinese law, just like every other American multinational here.

After several years, they realized they couldn't compete with Baidu in terms of Chinese-language search, so they decided to suddenly have a "change of heart" and decided instead that their business model would be defined on providing non-censored search results.

The thing with business, is that reward is inherently correlated with risk... and Google just wrongly predicted the response of the Chinese government.
 
I believe I have answered this several times before but I guess I can do it again.

Historically in China, the greater good of society is deemed as much more important than individual liberties, it has been this way for a long time.
If the people feels strongly about this moral precept, what is there for governmental enforcement?

This sometimes applies in America too, though to much less of an extent. One example would be the suspension of the age old principle of "Habeas corpus" (release from unlawful detention) regarding the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, who were denied the right to a free trial.
Wrong...They are not US citizens.

As to your second point, you might have noticed, China is a one-party state.
Why is the Chinese government so afraid of competing parties?

Which means different rules apply in comparison to that of a multi-party state.
Must ? No.

This is perhaps the explanation as to why the Chinese government seems more sensitive to criticism than others, although I cannot say for sure.
No...I see no 'explanation' here. I see a lot of excuses and tap-dancing around the real issue which I have already posed.
 
Disagree. I think the CCP took the correct actions regarding Google.

Google made it clear that they did not want to follow Chinese laws.

Now they could have attempted to lobby the government to change those laws, however difficult that would have been. They instead chose to bluff the Chinese government and threaten to leave China.

But they couldn't leave that market share behind right? So even though they failed to move the CCP... they still stayed behind in Hong Kong, and even today they are still trying to keep hold of that market share.
Of course the Chinese government took the correct course regarding Google. But the issue is not about law but about the reasonings behind the laws. Why should the Chinese government be afraid of the things that Americans are not?
 
No...I see no 'explanation' here. I see a lot of excuses and tap-dancing around the real issue which I have already posed.

If you have such a problem with our answers, then I don't see any point in giving you anymore of them.

Clearly you're fishing for a specific answer.

If you're only looking for answers that are agreeable to your own point of view, then I'm afraid this debate won't/can't go any further.
 
Yes



No

The Google thing was much more a business decision than a stand against censorship. They had complied with China's censorship rules for nearly a decade. So why the change of heart all of a sudden? Do you think they would have walked away if they had 50% market cap? 60% market cap?

I doubt it, and I hate being lied to.
Google's leadership has the right to change their minds. But you are still avoiding the real issue that form the basis of the Chinese government's prosecution of Google.

---------- Post added at 10:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:23 PM ----------

If you have such a problem with our answers, then I don't see any point in giving you anymore of them.

Clearly you're looking for a specific answer, but I have no idea what that is. Nor do I think such a method of argument is constructive at all.
Please see post 20.
 
Google's leadership has the right to change their minds. But you are still avoiding the real issue that form the basis of the Chinese government's prosecution of Google.

Buddy I have no idea why you keep tap-dancing around this particular issue.

Be like your hero McCain, and speak plainly. What exactly are you asking, and what specific answer from me are you fishing for? Since you've rejected any answers that don't fit your own point of view.
 

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