THOUGH SLOW, PAKISTAN’S ARMOUR AND ARTILLERY MODERNIZATION IS MOVING

[khanmubashir]

in.modern warfare tank mechanical armor won't be vs enemies armor but assist infantry in occupying enemy posts the gunships and jets will do the most of job of tank busting along with for ground atgm forces

 

[denel]

Al Talha based Mouz and Maaz are already equipped with ATGM and SAM. There is Al Hamza, an IFV, armed with a cannon. Viper IFV puts cannon and ATGM together on APC SAAD Chassis. There is also an Interesting APC, which is known as Multi Purpose Tracked Vehicle (MPTV) - RAAD. The main purpose of this vehicle is reconnaissance, surveillance, and Anti-Tank. RAAD can be armed with a 50 caliber and Baktar Shikan. It's shape is a bit different from Al Talha and M-113. PA has extensively tested M-113 as Anti Tank RR carrier as well as TOW missile carrier, apart from M-901 ITV.

There is a requirement for a wheeled APC/IFV, which can be fulfilled with a MRAP type vehicle to fulfill both purposes. Its again an interesting discussion, wheeled IFV or Tracked IFV or just an MRAP with bigger armament?. The 105 mm option is the L-7 gun available but wouldnt an ATGM be better to face modern MBT than a 105 mm gun ? Stryker has both versions. The T-59s are not expected to face MBTs unless its absolutely necessary, instead they give fire support to the infantry. If a heavy cannon like 105 mm is to be used, then putting it in top of M-113 might seem awkward. I think Aussies put Saladin turret 76 mm on M-113. So the debate of 25 mm, 30 mm, 76 mm or 105 mm cannon continues. So far its just 12.7 mm for PA.



MIBs may need to be re-structured.
4 x Rifle companys [ 2 x APC coys + 2 x IFV coys]
1 x Support weapon platoon [ATGM/Mortar or Mortar based on IFV]

Ratel fits this bill you are speaking about.

 

[Inception-06]

Underneath all the upgrades is still a t 72 ... It does not become M1A5

It cannot fire on move for instance .

 

[Mrc]

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Can you tell me in brief what Haider MBT was to be?

The PA at one point (in 2015-2017) considered buying an off-the-shelf tank for some reason. This was designated as the Haider MBT project. However, when you look at what they evaluated for the program (Oplot and VT4), the options weren't far off from what al-Khalid 2 will bring, if not a little behind (e.g., the AK2 would've been the only one of the 3 tanks to get a 1,500 hp engine). So, it seems the PA dropped the idea of an off-the-shelf tank.

If it were me, I'd still have a Haider MBT program, but position it as a next-gen clean-sheet platform, one with more automation (e.g., 2 tank crews), network integration, etc. Ukraine's UkrOboronProm is working on such a design, I would take a look at that as a solution for Haider. Or perhaps go a different route and work with Turkey on a variant of Altay so that we could have a heavyweight MBT (assuming the infrastructure in South Asia catches up).

The SE "Kharkiv Morozov Machine-Building Design Bureau" is working to create a promising next-generation tank. Comprehensive work – designing of an entirely new vehicle – is divided into separate stages: creation of a motor-transmission unit, development of new weapons systems, ammunition, fire protection and control systems, as well as the automation of most processes to reduce the number of crew members from three to two.

These works are planned for several years, including implementation of all key points of the program. As of today, the Kharkiv Morozov Design Bureau team has carried out a preliminary development of the engine transmission compartment and the calculation of the main engine parameters, as well as works on manufacturing of transmission prototypes.

The new 1500 hp engine will be capable of working on different types of fuels and their mixtures and will operate at critical temperature and climatic conditions. It has to have compact dimensions, modular construction and to be operated using rear-wheel drive, as well as front-wheel drive layouts. Due to this, the engine can also be used to create new samples of heavy tracked vehicles.

https://ukroboronprom.com.ua/en/med...a-perspektyvnogo-tanka-novogo-pokolinnya.html​

 

[Tipu7]

I don't think the Pakistan Army will replace the traditional APC with the MIFV (for exactly the reasons you stated).

Newly introduced Viper MIFV has similar troop carrying capacity as existing M113 and its variants in Pakistan inventory. What it differs in is firepower (30mm cannon & twin ATGM), protection (add on steel plates) and situation awareness (dedicated Commander sight). But it lags behind in terms of mobility (375 HP) thus putting question mark on its tactical mobility; a shortcoming present in entire Pakistan’s M113 inventory.

Rather, they're probably looking at using the IFV as an additional asset to accompany mechanized formations, and that too for specific roles such as firing ATGMs, SAMs, etc. Basically, use M113/Talha as pure APCs for infantry, and use IFVs for everything else (anti-tank, anti-air, command vehicle, etc).

It will be feasible only if PA acquire a new platform either by purchasing off the shelf stocks or by developing/converting an existing platform with enhanced fire power and protection with obvious compromise on its troop carrier capacity. Viper MIFV seems more like an upgrade for existing Saad APCs rather than a new platform.

There is also an Interesting APC, which is known as Multi Purpose Tracked Vehicle (MPTV) - RAAD. The main purpose of this vehicle is reconnaissance, surveillance, and Anti-Tank. RAAD can be armed with a 50 caliber and Baktar Shikan.

Raad is an outdated platform. But it can serve well as small dedicated tracked anti tank vehicle equipped with ATGM; just like German Wiesel armed with TOW ATGM.

There is a requirement for a wheeled APC/IFV, which can be fulfilled with a MRAP type vehicle to fulfill both purposes. Its again an interesting discussion, wheeled IFV or Tracked IFV or just an MRAP with bigger armament?.

Hamza 6X6 may be? It seems impressive but quite a time has passed and we haven't heard anything about its fate.
MRAPs are designed for low intensity conflicts and are used in COIN/CT Ops, dedicated Wheeled APC/IFV on the other hand follow the design philosophy of symmetry conventional warfare and therefore offer more flexible combat utility.
Therefore I don't see dedicated MRAPs useful as APC/IFV for Western Punjab sectors.
So far Pakistan has shown interest in these Wheeled APCs. And they can be configured to perform variety of tasks.

 

[Signalian]

.
Hamza 6X6 may be?

Turkish Army uses MRAPs in their campaigns with Syria. The nature of wars that PA fights, it needs MRAP at some stage.

Actually, Turkish Army is better in some ways:

1.For 0.25 million Turkish ground troops, there are above 2200 MBT's and almost double APC/IFV/MRAPs than Pakistan Army which has 0.55 million troops around 2000 MBT. Turkish SP Arty is more in numbers than PA SP Arty. Turkish MLRS numbers could be slightly higher than PA MLRS. Gunships and transport helicopters are almost the same in number.

One could argue that PA has dedicated mountain formations like FCNA or 12th ID, but that would be 50,000 troops.

2. Their basic troop transport, OTOKAR Cobra, is better protected than basic troops transport of PA like Toyota Hilux, Mitsubishi L200 and Toyota land Cruiser LJ-70 of PA. Lately PA uses M-113 a lot.

What has PA got which is counterpart of OTOKAR Cobra ?

3. While PA's pride of the place are AK and T-80 UD, numbering around 650+ numbers, Turkish Army has around 350 leo2A4s. Majority of Turkish Army is upgraded M-60 and M-48, just like Upgraded AZ, T-85 and lower tier T-59s of PA. But TA is ahead or on par in all other types of weapons than PA.

4. Pakistan has so many levels of paramilitary forces. NG, then FC/Rangers, then levies, then Khasadars, then Frontier constabulary. MARPs are required by these troops foremost, since they bear the brunt of patrolling and Ops in troubled areas.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

ASA, @Signalian

You have rightly pointed out the deficiencies PA and paramilitaries are facing in MRAPs. Could there be a solution, where current fleet of patrolling vehicles like Hilux could get protection against 7.62 rounds? Could it add some steel plates and bullet proof screens? As in most ambushes, terrorist are firing on these with SMGs etc.

Also a bit off topic. You might have come across Indian IBG composition, which they exercised last month in Ladakh. That means, CSD is not dead and Indians are working on it. An oversized brigade (5000 troops) backed by gunships, M777 howitzers, supported by C-17..
Please give your thoughts on that in CSD watch thread in Seniors Cafe. Thank you in advance

 

[Signalian]

ASA, @Signalian

You have rightly pointed out the deficiencies PA and paramilitaries are facing in MRAPs. Could there be a solution, where current fleet of patrolling vehicles like Hilux could get protection against 7.62 rounds? Could it add some steel plates and bullet proof screens? As in most ambushes, terrorist are firing on these with SMGs etc.

PA has option of Mohafiz- Rila- Burraq apart from HAMZA 6x6, especially using Mohafiz just as Turks use OTOKAR Cobra.
Steel plates have been used in Hilux which increases weight and thus affects mobility- but most members don't know that MP forbids officers/soldiers to modify stock military vehicles of PA, so engine modifications are impossible for better HP.

Also a bit off topic. You might have come across Indian IBG composition, which they exercised last month in Ladakh. That means, CSD is not dead and Indians are working on it. An oversized brigade (5000 troops) backed by gunships, M777 howitzers, supported by C-17..
Please give your thoughts on that in CSD watch thread in Seniors Cafe. Thank you in advance

Ladakh is not PA's front.

Pakistan Army cannot field division to division as tit for tat response to Indian Army, therefore where IA deploys division, PA deploys a brigade infront of it most of the times. PA MO Dte has an inclination to push as less troops as possible against IA and hold as many in reserve as possible for counter attack and opening a new front.

Therefore when IA division strength attacks, PA uses a brigade sized force (sometimes swelled up brigade) to off set IA's offensive, this has happened in 1965 and 1971 wars. Its a very effective strategy. Due to size of India Military- planning, forming up, execution, logistics - all takes days and weeks. Therefore, IA is trying to make independent formations which are already all set to conduct an offensive with in hours, thats what these IBGs are and thats what CSD is supposed to do. Otherwise, look at IA deployments, scattered all over India. iI comparison, have a look at PA deployments - focused towards a salient and sitting next to the LOC or IB - Brigade sized forces ready with in hours to move.

 

[ADIL SHERDIL]

the fellow with the last post is just ruining the thread some action is needed. I guess this indian is so ashamed of his own flag that he is using ours. I can understand with a country claiming to be superpower who cant provide washrooms for their people must have inferiority complex.

 

[sputnik]

I might have replied this before also. IA has 67 Armored Regiments, PA has 46 Armored Regiments.
For both Armies to have any success in the domain of armored warfare, its necessary to have excellent Logistics supply line of spares, ammunition and fuel. After that, are the reserves (Replacements for Destroyed MBT). Then is the mechanism of deployment, how are the armored forces deployed in all kinds of terrain.

PA's AZ, AK, T-80 UD and T-85 are capable to take on any IA MBT, be it T-90 or Arjun I/II or T-72. The T-59's used by PA deployed in Infantry Divisions and even though they will give direct firepower to infantry during an offensive, they will depend upon Infantry to protect them. T-59's are being phased out in any case. India gets advantage in the desert due to massive size of its Armored/Mechanized forces. Both armies will be fielding MBTs where their breakthroughs can be exploited- weakly defended positions.

MBTs operating alone are cannot bring success. In mechanized forces, IA has around 48 mechanized battalions, PA has far lesser. BMP-2 has better firepower than M-113/Talha series. PA holds an advantage in SP Artillery, while IA is catching up with Korean K-9 but has lesser numbers. In AD, both forces are on par with each other, PA should go for Pantsir if its available.



T-90 has tremendous fire power. It has seen combat in Syria, urban and open environments. IA regularly conducts exercises with T-90 in the desert regions. Its armor and protection systems are adequate for its generation- there is ERA, layered armor and news of active protection like SHTORA on it. The biggest advantage is its weight, its lighter than Modern western MBTs. Armored combat is about reach - the distance that can be covered in minimal time. MBT is not expected to stand like a fixed bunker and fight, MBT is expected to cover distance and make contact with the enemy. Issue with IA T-90s is that they are deployed sparsely in the country, few armored formations are near the border, rest reside well inside. Transporting T-90 shouldn't be an issue though- be it rail or road. There is always news of T-72 being upgraded in protection systems and night vision. If T-90 and T-72 engines don't give up, don't require extensive maintenance during an offensive and the Field workshops can provide timely repairs, then expect them to be threat on the battlefield. I mentioned that since we have been seeing posts of T-90 issues, most of which have been rectified and also issues from time to time, like the exploding barrel case in recent past. Rest assured, PA's ATGM teams will be hunting IA's T-90 and T-72 MBTs. ATGM is the most capable weapon against MBTs.


There are 3 in Ladakh, expect another 6 -10 in case of war with China.


This is @Dazzler department. He is up to date on such information.

K-9 is now manufactured in India and IA have deal to maintain, repair them as well at Indian giant L&T. real Nos. not known as how many IA inducted and how many maintained by L&T at their end but my guess is Samsung transferred whole Tech. to us.
L&T is emerging de-facto Indian Black water. As I recently come to know they maintain BSF's aviation wing as well and some gulf streams for other operations.

 

[Tipu7]

Turkish Army uses MRAPs in their campaigns with Syria. The nature of wars that PA fights, it needs MRAP at some stage.

That's because they will be facing insurgents not a regular military. And in modern World where asymmetric warfare is an eminent threat, it should be part of armed forces in sufficient numbers.

As far as symmetric threats are concerned, MRAPs can be put into use for conventional military operations, but this is not what they are designed for.
The design philosophy of MRAPS focuses more on protecting the vehicle from ambushes conducted by IEDs & RPGs, and less on fire power as the threats these vehicles have to engage are random militants not armored vehicles.

For conventional battlefields, a balanced vehicle with good troop capacity, low profile, good mobility, decent protection and modular firepower is required. For such battlefields MRAPs offer high profile, poor fire power and despite of good protection lack survivability as the enemy force here is equipped with tanks and artillery.

Therefore, for Indian centric threats in Punjab, Pakistan will be needing a 8X8 APC with modular fire power options in shape of 14.7mm, 20mm & higher caliber chain guns, mounted ATGMs and mortar.
I don't think we need 105mm gun on APC as Pakistan is already using T59/69 for mobile fire support to infantry formations.

Turkish Army uses MRAPs in their campaigns with Syria. The nature of wars that PA fights, it needs MRAP at some stage.

Actually, Turkish Army is better in some ways:

1.For 0.25 million Turkish ground troops, there are above 2200 MBT's and almost double APC/IFV/MRAPs than Pakistan Army which has 0.55 million troops around 2000 MBT. Turkish SP Arty is more in numbers than PA SP Arty. Turkish MLRS numbers could be slightly higher than PA MLRS. Gunships and transport helicopters are almost the same in number.

One could argue that PA has dedicated mountain formations like FCNA or 12th ID, but that would be 50,000 troops.

2. Their basic troop transport, OTOKAR Cobra, is better protected than basic troops transport of PA like Toyota Hilux, Mitsubishi L200 and Toyota land Cruiser LJ-70 of PA. Lately PA uses M-113 a lot.

What has PA got which is counterpart of OTOKAR Cobra ?

3. While PA's pride of the place are AK and T-80 UD, numbering around 650+ numbers, Turkish Army has around 350 leo2A4s. Majority of Turkish Army is upgraded M-60 and M-48, just like Upgraded AZ, T-85 and lower tier T-59s of PA. But TA is ahead or on par in all other types of weapons than PA.

4. Pakistan has so many levels of paramilitary forces. NG, then FC/Rangers, then levies, then Khasadars, then Frontier constabulary. MARPs are required by these troops foremost, since they bear the brunt of patrolling and Ops in troubled areas.

Turkey is a NATO member. Their strategic environment and threat perceptions are very different from us. We cannot afford a decent build up like Turkey.

Steel plates have been used in Hilux which increases weight and thus affects mobility- but most members don't know that MP forbids officers/soldiers to modify stock military vehicles of PA, so engine modifications are impossible for better HP.

Hikux is terrible option as military vehicle.
Its cheap & mobile, add armor and it will entirely lose little bit of advantages it offers.

 

[Signalian]

That's because they will be facing insurgents not a regular military. And in modern World where asymmetric warfare is an eminent threat, it should be part of armed forces in sufficient numbers.

As far as symmetric threats are concerned, MRAPs can be put into use for conventional military operations, but this is not what they are designed for.
The design philosophy of MRAPS focuses more on protecting the vehicle from ambushes conducted by IEDs & RPGs, and less on fire power as the threats these vehicles have to engage are random militants not armored vehicles.

For conventional battlefields, a balanced vehicle with good troop capacity, low profile, good mobility, decent protection and modular firepower is required. For such battlefields MRAPs offer high profile, poor fire power and despite of good protection lack survivability as the enemy force here is equipped with tanks and artillery.

Therefore, for Indian centric threats in Punjab, Pakistan will be needing a 8X8 APC with modular fire power options in shape of 14.7mm, 20mm & higher caliber chain guns, mounted ATGMs and mortar.
I don't think we need 105mm gun on APC as Pakistan is already using T59/69 for mobile fire support to infantry formations.

Lazar II - IFV and MRAP.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/serb...mored-vehicle-for-an-unnamed-customer.434999/

Pakistan is also fighting asymmetric warfare against insurgency, since early 2000's. The requirement for MRAP is still there especially for Quetta/Pesh Corps.

 

[TheDarkKnight]

I can see armour related programs (AK,AK2, T80 etc) mentioned in the MODP report, but nothing related to artillery?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @Arsalan
Are we ever going to finalize on truck mounted SPH?

 

[Dazzler]

I can see armour related programs (AK,AK2, T80 etc) mentioned in the MODP report, but nothing related to artillery?

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @Arsalan
Are we ever going to finalize on truck mounted SPH?

Last i heard we are testing the Chinese SH-15, and Serbs were preparing another version of NORA B-52. No updates since then.