The untold story of Malaysian Airlines MH17

[airmarshal]

There are clear bullet holes on pilot side of cockpit. Watch from 9:32 min. How can this piece of evidence be refuted? Clearly there was an airborne military jet targeting the plane to frame Russia.

 

[Superboy]

Unfortunately it is unlikely the truth will come out in our lifetime. The US pressured the Netherlands to keep the secret classified, never to reveal it to the public.

 

[Penguin]

Unfortunately it is unlikely the truth will come out in our lifetime. The US pressured the Netherlands to keep the secret classified, never to reveal it to the public.

1) If the US did pressure the Dutch, how would you know about it? (It is not like they would advertise that fact.)
2) Another baseless claim (as an extention of your own 'no photo there for fake' approach, and since obviously a photo would not proof anything here, the least you could do is to document your position)
3) There are 2 international investigations currently ongoing, a technical and a criminal investigation. It is a little premature to conclude anything about 'secrecy' or 'classified' as there are no reports yet.

 

[Galad]

It is a little premature to conclude anything about 'secrecy' or 'classified' as there are no reports yet.

Now answer me why
1.No black box report was released
2.No ATC tower records were released
3.No questions asked to ATC operators
4.No AWACS/sat intel released
5.Why Ukraine(country which during exercises before shot down passenger jet ) has a right to veto .
And we can talk after about your "premature","secrecy "and "classified" .

 

[Penguin]

Now answer me why
1.No black box report was released
2.No ATC tower records were released
3.No questions asked to ATC operators
4.No AWACS/sat intel released
5.Why Ukraine(country which during exercises before shot down passenger jet ) has a right to veto .
And we can talk after about your "premature","secrecy "and "classified" .

Since when is information released during an investigation? All states part of the investigative teams have a right to veto concept report text, prior to publication ( by int'l agreement). Perhaps look into the applicable treaty texts before you judge?

 

[Levina]

80 kids!!!
Dont know which way humanity is headed.

The video shows enough evidence to prove that a jet attacked MH-17.The cockpit piece recovered and the subsequent tests conducted to know the effect of an attack by a 30mm gun in SU-25 proves it beyond doubt.
MH-17 became a scapegoat...thats it!!

 

[Penguin]

Somebody I used to work with ... plus husband and children.

Gun or missile damage? Can you tell?

 

[Penguin]

There are clear bullet holes on pilot side of cockpit. Watch from 9:32 min. How can this piece of evidence be refuted? Clearly there was an airborne military jet targeting the plane to frame Russia.

Russian TV Published Propaganda About MH17 That Actually Disproved The Kremlin's Main Theory
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile

A gun attack requires the attacking aircraft to approach the target to within 1000m. “A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow. I.e. inconsisten with RUSSIAN data'

While having different guns, respectively single barrel Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 and double barrel Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-2 , both Mig-29 and Su-25 use the same 30x165mm rounds.

The Gryazev-Shipunov (GSh) aircraft cannon, used as GSh-301 (1500rpm, 45kg) in the MiG-29 and SU-27, as GSh-30 (3000rpm, 115kg) in the SU-25 and as GSh-6-30 (5000rpm, 150kg) in the MiG-27K, use the same ammunition, but with the electrical primer EKV-30M activated by 27 Volts.maximum range is 4000m

Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1: The gun's maximum effective range against aerial targets is 200 to 800 m and against surface or ground targets is 1,200 to 1,800 m.
Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-301 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Galad]

Since when is information released during an investigation? All states part of the investigative teams have a right to veto concept report text, prior to publication ( by int'l agreement). Perhaps look into the applicable treaty texts before you judge?

Since then processing all available information taking so long?Because of what exactly?For what kind of purposes?How come black box of the plane in Algeria(or whatever country) fall down few days after MH 17 took just 3 days to be deciphered and released to public?Why Ukraine (a country which should be one of the potential culprits) have a a place and veto in the investigation(apart from the fact being newest Western pet of course)?Perhaps just perhaps use a bit of critical and independant thinking in such cases?

 

[Superboy]

When 30 mm cannon shells hit a plane, the shells fragment and the result is pretty much the same as a surface to air missile hit. Visually I think it is virtually impossible to tell the difference.

A gun attack requires the attacking aircraft to approach the target to within 1000m. “A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow. I.e. inconsisten with RUSSIAN data.

I beg to differ. 30 mm cannon has an effective range of something like 3 to 5 km if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Penguin]

Since then processing all available information taking so long?Because of what exactly?For what kind of purposes?How come black box of the plane in Algeria(or whatever country) fall down few days after MH 17 took just 3 days to be deciphered and released to public?Why Ukraine (a country which should be one of the potential culprits) have a a place and veto in the investigation(apart from the fact being newest Western pet of course)?Perhaps just perhaps use a bit of critical and independant thinking in such cases?

Like a 3 year old, you can ask why again and again. It doesn't matter with respect to what is posted in post 2 and 3. Treaties govern who gets to be involved in investigations of aircraft incidents (really, check out the protocols) The paths of the investigations have been indicated by the parties involved. It is not my (or their) problem if you are impatient.

Clearly, for a number of Obvious reasons, there is a difference between a 'routine' incident (i.e. a plane crash) and a 'non-routine' incident (i.e. a potentially deliberate downing of an aircraft). You would want to be extra careful and thourough in your research, wouldn't you?

As for critical... I've only pointed out what you can expect when, without voicing an opinion regarding the cause of the MH17's demise. Unlike some others here.

When 30 mm cannon shells hit a plane, the shells fragment and the result is pretty much the same as a surface to air missile hit. Visually I think it is virtually impossible to tell the difference.

I beg to differ. 30 mm cannon has an effective range of something like 3 to 5 km if I'm not mistaken.

So, in short, you admit you can't tell. Any other takers? Interesting you should remark that there won't be shells exiting (i.e. how to we explain those 30mm 'outbound' holes?)

No, 4km is the max range for Russian 30mm cannon, but the max effective range in A2A is much less. Barrel length is a factor in determining cannon range for a given cartridge. There is also a big difference between a stationary Tunguska firing its radar guided guns at an inbound and positioning an aircraft so it can shoot and hit its target (hint: not radar guided, 2 vehicles moving and manouvering at high speeds). Which do you think will be more accurate at distance?

Gsh-30-1: max effective range is under 1000m. Gsh-30-1 is only 1.97cm long, Gsh-30-2 is about 2,04m Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-301 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2A42 cannon (Mi-28): Effective firing range 2,500 metres . Gun length is 3.027 m
30 mm automatic cannon 2A42 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
According to the manufacturer, effective range when engaging ground targets such as light armoured vehicles is 1,500 m while soft-skinned targets can be engaged out to 4,000 m. Air targets can be engaged flying at low altitudes of up to 2,000 m at subsonic speeds and up to a slant range of 2,500 m.
Army Guide - 2A42, Gun

For the 2A72 cannon in use in e.g. BMP-30 (same ammo), effective range against armoured targets is claimed to be 1,500 m while lightly armoured targets can be engaged out to 2,000 m and helicopters out to 4,000 m.
Army Guide - 2A72, Gun

Plus, the attacking plane would have had to come in from the right-front side, i.e. be visible to the pilots at that range (alarm risk). Plus, it takes some nifty shooting to just take out the cockpit. Plus, other areas of the MH17 show very different damage patterns, inconsistent with cannon rounds.

 

[black-hawk_101]

I think it might be true that its has been put down.

 

[Penguin]

Since then processing all available information taking so long?Because of what exactly?For what kind of purposes?How come black box of the plane in Algeria(or whatever country) fall down few days after MH 17 took just 3 days to be deciphered and released to public?Why Ukraine (a country which should be one of the potential culprits) have a a place and veto in the investigation(apart from the fact being newest Western pet of course)?Perhaps just perhaps use a bit of critical and independant thinking in such cases?

They only recently (early December) started retreiving wreckage from the crash site. Then, they will attempt to puzzle together as much as they can of the aircraft. Just like with Panam 103 (Lockerbie, December 21, 1988). I have read they are also doing material analysis on items recovered from the inside of victims remains (i.e. metallic fragments, and chemical residue on those).

Flight 103 remains collected

Likewise TWA 800

AF 447

 

[jhungary]

lol... People don't really know how Air-Air Engagement works here

In almost all Jet to Jet combat, if gun (or cannon) were involved, the attacker usually needed to be fire from the victim 6 o'clock, unlike missile, gun can't turn and chase their prey and with 2 fast jet merge can have a combine speed of 1000 to 1200 mph (Boeing 767 can go as fast as 570mph cruise while Su-25 can go up to 670 mph cruise)

so, if that hole in the cockpit near fuselage are indeed cannon or bullet hole, the attacker much be at 90 degree left (Bearing 270) with the MH-17, with gun accurate anywhere between 3 to 5 nm, it give the fighter/bomber pilot roughly 0.3 second to fire a burst and hit the MH-17 and dodge out of the way.

If that's what exactly happened, then either the pilot (Be that Russia or Ukrainian) would either be a crack shot or extremely lucky.

If that is indeed a cannon strike, then it is highly probable it was from ground AAA, not really likely from an air-air engagement. Chances of an Air-Air engagement resulting that kind of hole that kind of position is much like the chance a pig can fly.

@gambit would give you more insight.

 

[airmarshal]

Russian TV Published Propaganda About MH17 That Actually Disproved The Kremlin's Main Theory
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile

A gun attack requires the attacking aircraft to approach the target to within 1000m. “A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow. I.e. inconsisten with RUSSIAN data'

While having different guns, respectively single barrel Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 and double barrel Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-2 , both Mig-29 and Su-25 use the same 30x165mm rounds.

The Gryazev-Shipunov (GSh) aircraft cannon, used as GSh-301 (1500rpm, 45kg) in the MiG-29 and SU-27, as GSh-30 (3000rpm, 115kg) in the SU-25 and as GSh-6-30 (5000rpm, 150kg) in the MiG-27K, use the same ammunition, but with the electrical primer EKV-30M activated by 27 Volts.maximum range is 4000m

Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1: The gun's maximum effective range against aerial targets is 200 to 800 m and against surface or ground targets is 1,200 to 1,800 m.
Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-301 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Those holes in the cockpit are consistent with rounds exiting the aluminum skin. It could either be some proximity fuse missile or machine gun pock marks.

lol... People don't really know how Air-Air Engagement works here

In almost all Jet to Jet combat, if gun (or cannon) were involved, the attacker usually needed to be fire from the victim 6 o'clock, unlike missile, gun can't turn and chase their prey and with 2 fast jet merge can have a combine speed of 1000 to 1200 mph (Boeing 767 can go as fast as 570mph cruise while Su-25 can go up to 670 mph cruise)

so, if that hole in the cockpit near fuselage are indeed cannon or bullet hole, the attacker much be at 90 degree left (Bearing 270) with the MH-17, with gun accurate anywhere between 3 to 5 nm, it give the fighter/bomber pilot roughly 0.3 second to fire a burst and hit the MH-17 and dodge out of the way.

If that's what exactly happened, then either the pilot (Be that Russia or Ukrainian) would either be a crack shot or extremely lucky.

If that is indeed a cannon strike, then it is highly probable it was from ground AAA, not really likely from an air-air engagement. Chances of an Air-Air engagement resulting that kind of hole that kind of position is much like the chance a pig can fly.

@gambit would give you more insight.

But if it was a ground AA, can the rounds reach that high?

By the way @Penguin west does propaganda all the time. But when Russia or someone else says something that does not conform to their narrative, thats branded propaganda immediately.