The Nine Unknown by Talbot Mundy and Pakistan

[ps3linux]

There is NO Democracy in Pakistan ... never was... It is JumWhoriat... as in whoring....

I did tag you to post Iblees ki Majlis e Shura in Urdu.. I assure you if you map it on the JumWhoriat in Pakistan you shall find picture perfect match.

JumWhoriat is death sentence to Pakistan's Progress.

We need a sytem that is Performance based and reflects the Princiles of Our First State i.e. Riasat e Medina.

And that without FazoolMullahMaffia!

If you could post Iqbal's poem here: https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paks-criminal-enterprise-can-the-state-free-the-people.614517/

for you and the board

Hum woh buzdil nahi yalghar se dar jayenge
Tum ne samjha ke hum talwaar se dar jayenge
Sainkro hamla-awaron ko chutkiyon men phenk den
Tum ne kya samjha ke ek waar se dar jayenge
Humne khud apne lahu se hi to seencha hai watan
Tum ne samjha ke hum hathiyar se dar jayenge
Tamam zakhm ke badle hisab lenge tera
Tum ne samjha ke hum dhutkar se dar jayenge
Hum jab zaban chalayen to talwaren chup rahen
Tum ne samjha ke hum phatkar se dar jayenge
Patthar chalane walon zara band karo ye khel
Tum ne samjha ke hum do char se dar jayenge

One of things that keeps me going. Enjoy.

Sorry admins (@The Eagle , @waz ) but people here need some motivational poetry and philosophy.

Goodnight.

 

[shah_123]

Strange it is one of the hot topics of discussion between my sons and I these days although the words are different, why human mind's flow of energy is more than 70% - 80% negative? why hatred sells easily (case in point when it comes to pakistan ANP, Achakzai, MQM), for india RSS there are lot of examples but I think these would suffice?

After Iblis refused to prostate and ALLAH swt' ordering him to get out,

(Quran 15:36 to 42)
Iblis said: "My Lord! Grant me respite till the Day when they will be resurrected."

Allah said: "For sure you are granted respite
until the day of a known time."

Iblis said: "My Lord! In the manner You led me to error, I will make things on earth seem attractive to them and lead all of them to error, except those of Your servants whom You have singled out for Yourself."

Allah said: "Here is the path that leads straight to Me. Over My true servants you will be able to exercise no power, your power will be confined to the erring ones, those who choose to follow you."

In another place ALLAH swt' says:
Az-Zukhruf
[36] If anyone withdraws himself from remembrance of (Allah) Most Gracious, We appoint for him an evil one (Qareen), to be an intimate companion to him.

[37] Such (evil ones) really hinder them from the Path, but they think that they are being guided aright!
-------------------
It has always been, the forces of good vs the evil --- We know in advance our enemy and tactics employed by him - We also know how to avoid the forces of evil.

I hope this helps in your discussion with your sons.

 

[VCheng]

for you and the board

Hum woh buzdil nahi yalghar se dar jayenge
Tum ne samjha ke hum talwaar se dar jayenge
Sainkro hamla-awaron ko chutkiyon men phenk den
Tum ne kya samjha ke ek waar se dar jayenge
Humne khud apne lahu se hi to seencha hai watan
Tum ne samjha ke hum hathiyar se dar jayenge
Tamam zakhm ke badle hisab lenge tera
Tum ne samjha ke hum dhutkar se dar jayenge
Hum jab zaban chalayen to talwaren chup rahen
Tum ne samjha ke hum phatkar se dar jayenge
Patthar chalane walon zara band karo ye khel
Tum ne samjha ke hum do char se dar jayenge

One of things that keeps me going. Enjoy.

Sorry admins (@The Eagle , @waz ) but people here need some motivational poetry and philosophy.

Goodnight.

Excellent motivational poetry. Lagta hey hum sirf doobain gey, magar achcha hey keh darein gey nahi. Bahut khoob!

 

[ps3linux]

Excellent motivational poetry. Lagta hey hum sirf doobain gey, magar achcha hey keh darein gey nahi. Bahut khoob!

Actually when I was abroad I used to have same sort of views, however when I came back after two decades abroad, spend time here observed tenacity and perseverance of the people here, started observing so many small positive things happening my views to started to change. There are no perfect societies, no perfect countries when I look at east and west where far right neo-conservatives are gathering traction I fell better in Pakistan because that is the path we have chosen not to walk, moderation is the way forward we are inching towards its, and I keep saying few decades is too small a time frame for nations to develop.

Today, 72 years of GanguOccupation completes itself!

7+2=9

The Great Turning has begun!!!

There was a time when I combined Astrology/palmistry/numerology and meditation in one single science what I deduced was extremely disturbing, that's why I gave it up all of it. However, the good thing is a great prosperous future awaits Pakistan, the map will not be the same as today much better.

9 does denote the end and a new beginning if you know what I mean.

 

[Verve]

Actually when I was abroad I used to have same sort of views, however when I came back after two decades abroad, spend time here observed tenacity and perseverance of the people here, started observing so many small positive things happening my views to started to change.

Similar story here. Once certain opinions are formed, they can only be undone by returning and living amongst the common people to see all the positivity without the bias filters of past.

 

[Jackdaws]

I was thinking about the book “The Nine Unknown by Talbot Mundy” and the gist is that a secret society of nine people originally commissioned by King Ashoka has wealth of knowledge and pulling the strings to shape the events and I drew some parallel with Pakistan of today.

I am going to outline few things and then analysis of what I think about them they are:

· Political dynasties have been discredited

· PMLN split in three and will become a regional party in the next few years

· PPPP is in the least leg, Zardari trying desperately to remain relevant even after launching Asefa has not been able to gather traction

· MQM Gone

· ANP, J.I Achakzai almost gone

· JUI is next

· Religious parties in politics practically irrelevant

· Extremist and extremist tendencies discredited and abhorrent

· Lawyers not only discredited but labelled as dishonest, thugs

· Judges discredited on morality, people like Raza M Khan, Faez Essa are just adding to it.

· Media houses discredited line drawn with or against Pakistan

· Generals/forces credibility hanging by a thread

· Business tycoon discredited, proved dishonest and disloyal to the country (mostly)

· Doctors discredited as money making machines less interested in patient welfare and more in money

· Waderas/Jagirdars discredited as thugs, treating people in an inhuman fashion

· Bureaucrats discredited and labelled as dishonest, traitorous, political puppets

My generation is the one which has seen three phases, I remember very young myself being slapped by my grandmother for eating out of a plate of “niaz” send by a neighbor who was known to take bribes with the comments “how could you eat this haram from a rashee’s home”.

Then Zia and post eras where bribes/haram became a norm of the society and now the last 9 years and change (ever since we came back to Pakistan) these happening as mentioned above where corruption is now labelled as a social evil, traffic violation as the same; to cut the story short despite all challenges something/someone is nudging us in the right direction. Above statements are not absolute but generally speaking media who*res sorry houses haven’t they established themselves as Pro and Anti Pakistan. I am not saying the above mentioned are absolute or that we are there yet but we are moving in the right direction aren’t we.

I was just thinking is the answer as simple as “Army” or “The Establishment” I don’t think so is it the “Nine Unknown” or is it the excessive negativity that we have been exposed to over the last decade or so which has forced us to look at ourselves critically, equate us with rest of the “decent world” (I have not used the word developed world deliberately)

When I look at it, think about it I realize whoever is nudging us in the right direction is doing us a great favor, this is the way forward.

While people see negativity, problems I see opportunities, there is so much positive happening around that I wonder why are we missing out on them, why don’t we cherish our achievements. It's just how we perceive things glass is half empty or half full, personally I prefer the later.

Thoughts please?

@Mangus Ortus Novem , @graphican , @Shane , @Dubious

Have you read "The Tenth Unknown"?

 

[ps3linux]

Have you read "The Tenth Unknown"?

Not yet, Jvlant Nalin Sampat is next after I finish Shobah Nihalini's series, of course writing my own series takes lot of time along my other commitments. I'd say another month or so.

But thanks for mentioning, never could resist good fiction.

 

[VCheng]

Actually when I was abroad I used to have same sort of views, however when I came back after two decades abroad, spend time here observed tenacity and perseverance of the people here, started observing so many small positive things happening my views to started to change. There are no perfect societies, no perfect countries when I look at east and west where far right neo-conservatives are gathering traction I fell better in Pakistan because that is the path we have chosen not to walk, moderation is the way forward we are inching towards its, and I keep saying few decades is too small a time frame for nations to develop.

The tenacity and perseverance of Pakistanis has never been in doubt. The pity is how little they actually achieve with it. Potential bahut hey, of course.

There was a time when I combined Astrology/palmistry/numerology and meditation in one single science what I deduced was extremely disturbing, that's why I gave it up all of it. However, the good thing is a great prosperous future awaits Pakistan, the map will not be the same as today much better.

What an interesting tidbit. Surely you were not extremely disturbed by the revelation of a great prosperous future for Pakistan, so what else was it that caused you to quit in such a fruitful and interesting endeavor? Pray do tell!

 

[ps3linux]

What an interesting tidbit. Surely you were not extremely disturbed by the revelation of a great prosperous future for Pakistan, so what else was it that caused you to quit in such a fruitful and interesting endeavor? Pray do tell!

Sorry for late reply see I would always say Pakistan has a bright/prosperous future. Pakistanis have a Bright/prosperous future but I would never say all pakistanis have a bright/prosperous future, independence/greatness of nations demand payment every nation has paid it, we have insulted it, defied every law of nature.

Pakistan is more than what this nation deserved, Pakistan deserved this nation is altogether a different discussion, so after insulting/defying the nature the price will have to be paid a hefty one all in blood. Wont say more on this.

 

[VCheng]

Sorry for late reply see I would always say Pakistan has a bright/prosperous future. Pakistanis have a Bright/prosperous future but I would never say all pakistanis have a bright/prosperous future, independence/greatness of nations demand payment every nation has paid it, we have insulted it, defied every law of nature.

Pakistan is more than what this nature deserved, Pakistan deserved this nation is altogether a different discussion, so after insulting/defying the nature the price will have to be paid a hefty one all in blood. Wont say more on this.

Fair enough. Of course, the future never arrives, by definition.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Pakistani qom ko terbiat ki zaroorat hai, her chez main. Log sath dain gy, per leader baap jaisa hoto..

 

[Maxpane]

this thread is full of wisdom Every word is meaningful for me. thank you sir @ps3linux

 

[TNT]

I was thinking about the book “The Nine Unknown by Talbot Mundy” and the gist is that a secret society of nine people originally commissioned by King Ashoka has wealth of knowledge and pulling the strings to shape the events and I drew some parallel with Pakistan of today.

I am going to outline few things and then analysis of what I think about them they are:

· Political dynasties have been discredited

· PMLN split in three and will become a regional party in the next few years

· PPPP is in the least leg, Zardari trying desperately to remain relevant even after launching Asefa has not been able to gather traction

· MQM Gone

· ANP, J.I Achakzai almost gone

· JUI is next

· Religious parties in politics practically irrelevant

· Extremist and extremist tendencies discredited and abhorrent

· Lawyers not only discredited but labelled as dishonest, thugs

· Judges discredited on morality, people like Raza M Khan, Faez Essa are just adding to it.

· Media houses discredited line drawn with or against Pakistan

· Generals/forces credibility hanging by a thread

· Business tycoon discredited, proved dishonest and disloyal to the country (mostly)

· Doctors discredited as money making machines less interested in patient welfare and more in money

· Waderas/Jagirdars discredited as thugs, treating people in an inhuman fashion

· Bureaucrats discredited and labelled as dishonest, traitorous, political puppets

My generation is the one which has seen three phases, I remember very young myself being slapped by my grandmother for eating out of a plate of “niaz” send by a neighbor who was known to take bribes with the comments “how could you eat this haram from a rashee’s home”.

Then Zia and post eras where bribes/haram became a norm of the society and now the last 9 years and change (ever since we came back to Pakistan) these happening as mentioned above where corruption is now labelled as a social evil, traffic violation as the same; to cut the story short despite all challenges something/someone is nudging us in the right direction. Above statements are not absolute but generally speaking media who*res sorry houses haven’t they established themselves as Pro and Anti Pakistan. I am not saying the above mentioned are absolute or that we are there yet but we are moving in the right direction aren’t we.

I was just thinking is the answer as simple as “Army” or “The Establishment” I don’t think so is it the “Nine Unknown” or is it the excessive negativity that we have been exposed to over the last decade or so which has forced us to look at ourselves critically, equate us with rest of the “decent world” (I have not used the word developed world deliberately)

When I look at it, think about it I realize whoever is nudging us in the right direction is doing us a great favor, this is the way forward.

While people see negativity, problems I see opportunities, there is so much positive happening around that I wonder why are we missing out on them, why don’t we cherish our achievements. It's just how we perceive things glass is half empty or half full, personally I prefer the later.

Thoughts please?

@Mangus Ortus Novem , @graphican , @Shane , @Dubious

Sir you would know by now that countries are not what they are portrayed as. Deep state or hidden hands move the key cards. Every major country has a form of deep state, without such hidden hands a country is vulnerable to sophisticated warfare. The whole country govt can be hijacked by a powerful country, so there is a need of deep state to keep things in control. The level of deep state control is different for every country.
What fascinates me about deep state of Pakistan is that not only has it managed to keep itself totally hidden, but also proven it has enormous control too. Enemies have even bought our generals but they couldn't achieve much with it.

 

[ps3linux]

The beast:


What I call the beast is normally named as the deep state, which is basically the influential people who protect the existing portfolio/maintain the status quo or take the country forward through small measures which provide a baseline for a major shift in policy.


The beast in Pakistan has two essential components the civilian side and the forces side, usually without overtly agreeing both work in tandem with each other as a peaceful co-existence the favorite meeting places where both interact regularly without making it obvious is at the clubs like Islamabad club, the gun club, Lahore gymkhana, sind club and golf courses. If you are a regular there you'd see people from both components interacting with each other each side evaluating what the other is thinking and trying to move in which directions. Lately a formal avenue has been developed for the interaction of both and that is NDU where both components come together for a course and stay in touch with each other long after that course.


I am not going to take too many examples and define how the interaction of both produce what, but one typical example of both components of the beast interacting and supporting each other for the greater good of the country was Pakistan Nuclear program, rulers came in and left, Govts of dictators, civilian, left/right and socialist came and went but nothing changed for the program civilian, military all acted together to succeed in the same.


One example of the military side of the beast was Noora always had problems with Army Chiefs got rid of Gen Kakar, and after that General Karamat. These are not decisions which should be made without serious consideration unfortunately in our country we have been blessed with ruler with no vision, no after thought and no habit of studying. for Army the beast are its commanders right from platoon to Corps, who in turn have to have a feel of the pulse of people under their command. When Noora fired Gen Karamat there was a very strong resentment in the army; army chief is one designation which should not be taken lightly in Pakistan, the indoctrination is absolutely out of this world, the gelling in of officers with Jawans is exemplary, the jawans are treated much better that any of our neighbors. So the resentment became so strong that the message was passed all the way from bottom to top and acknowledgment and future course of action was send from top to bottom that this family will never again be allowed to fire a serving Army Chief. Musharraf was not a widely respected Army Chief many of the people who knew him abhorred him but since he was appointed Army Chief, he was their head. Whne noor decided to fire the Army chief while he was in Sri Lanka it was not a well planned army action it was a result of the previous decision 10th Corps decided it was enough, Gen Usmani and Gen Iftikhar ensured his plane landed safely and the rest is history.


I have reservation with certain aspects of our Armed forces but having traveled extensively over the decades interacted with people from across the globe trust our is one of the best indoctrinated Armed Force across the globe, our circumstances, our geography, our coming into being, our survival, our covert and overt enemies and our religion all have played a major role in the evolution of Pakistan Armed forces the way they stand today. Nutshell I have a lot of respect for them and their tenacity. Corruption yes, traitors to the country bare minimum.


Not all bureaucrats are good and not all are bad, but generally pre 80s bureaucrats were much better and pro Pakistan than the post 80s lot, however media and social media of today are what is going to modify the character of these bureaucrats in the future.


Keeping things the same is very easy in the civilian side of the beast just keep sitting on a file/decision, return with one objection at a time, pass it with negative remarks and the decision if taken will cost someone something once new Govt takes charge. So while bureaucracy has not really been pro Pakistan, in a way in many aspects its reluctance to change has also protected Pakistan.


But what has happened with BISP its unearthing of bureaucrats benefiting from BISP has scared the sh*t out of them.


There is another component to the beast but it has been ineffective/incompetent and lacked vision and that is the industrial tycoons, although Malik Riaz I must admit is part of the beast much to my disliking.


There are people from the corporate sector who interact with both the military and civilian segments of the beast, inform them of the benefits of new law/legislation e.g; I and a few people do take credit of the improvement in taxes through real estate sector because we have been lobbying against real estate being used as money laundering and investment avenue for over a decade.


Will try and add more once I have more time.

@incognito1000

 

[LeGenD]

There is still much to fix in Pakistan. Fundamental problems can be narrowed down to following:-

1. Corruption.
2. Lack of emphasis on values-building.

1. Corruption

Corruption remains a major issue for instance. Story begins with Judiciary.

[1] Judiciary needs a total revamp because it is very business-oriented in its present form. Lawyers and judges are into making money, few care about providing justice. There is over-reliance on the eye-witnesses approach to penalize a criminal unfortunately who can be easily bribed and/or influenced with threats; this needs to change.

Military should be answerable to judiciary in any law-oriented proceedings. However, refer back to [1]. These are essential steps towards building a civilization in which all institutions are accountable for what they do.

[2] As hinted above, corruption remains a major issue. This menace cannot be addressed until NAB is empowered by the parliament to proceed against any individual or institution to investigate charges of corruption. However, NAB should not hurt/kill people in the process [3]. NAB should have advanced tools/technologies at its disposal to obtain desired information from across Pakistan much like an intelligence arm/agency.

[3] The practice of torturing the ACCUSED is barbaric IMHO. Better methods of extracting information from potential liars should be adopted instead. These measures should also apply to Police [4].

Another issue is of NAB as well as Courts reaching an understanding with those who are found to be GUILTY of corruption and/or crimes due to bribes and/or partial recovery of plundered wealth from them. WHY? This needs to change. Unless CRIMINALS are awarded 'examplary punishments' in Pakistan, the menace of corruption cannot be addressed. Refer back to [1].

[4] Police should be completely free from political influence in its works. Towards this end, an important step is to make the seat of Home Minister as Party-neutral. Nevertheless, Police officers should be completely accountable to judiciary as well as NAB.

2. Lack of emphasis on values-building.

Pakistani education system is exceedingly secular and bookish in its teachings. There is too much emphasis on syllabus and examinations instead of inculcating values in students.

Why schools are not tasked to teach Holy Quran to students from class 3 and above? Why this matter is left to Qari Sahib? Teaching Holy Quran to students should be made compulsory and this shall be a continous process starting with class 3 and should continue up to class 12. By the time students will approach a university, they will know much about Islam and how to behave.

Universities can be tasked to teach students about how to be responsible citizens in general, and the do's and don'ts of co-education and/or mixed gender environments.

Emphasis on values-building is an important step towards building a civilization in which educated people will be on the same page in regards to dissuading corruption in all institutions as well as other forms of evil. This brings me to [5].

[5] CSS should be abolished, and university graduates should be allowed to compete for all types of bureaucratic POSTS in Pakistan. What is the point of spending so much money to obtain a degree from a university only to find it useless and/or of limited value. Graduates with the right aptitude and values will be instrumental in shaping institutions in the future.