What's new

The less talked about American Foreign Policy problem

Genesis

SENIOR MEMBER
Mar 26, 2013
4,599
24
7,492
Country
China
Location
China
All the talk of China making enemies, but why is nobody talking of the American's problem?

Right now two of the top three military nations don't like America in Russia and China. America has policies for both that makes them like them even less.

India by their alliance with Russia is no fan of America and being a member of BRICS, they are more closer to anti-America than "I'm loving it".

South America's Brazil is no fan of America by being in BRICS, and Africa has also turned away from its influence, to an extent.

Less we forget Middle East and Islamic nations are no fans of America.



Now you might say some of those are weak claims at best, and yes they are, but seeing as how Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia to go with Australia are put into any discussion with China as our adversaries, and then there is the fact Taiwan is involved without ever providing information on why they also have a claim and why they won't exercises it against China, I'm thinking weak claims and non-existent ones are perfectly acceptable and could be on the table.


But the main point is this. Russia, China and India, we may not be the best friends, but we won't ever turn against each other FOR America, we might fight now and again, but it would be between ourselves, and not FOR America.

That's three of the top 5-10 nations right there, a bit more than Philippines, Vietnam, and whoever else is put there for China, no?
 
And what is the problem here? Foreign policy is not a popularity contest, it is what serves national interests the best.
 
As long as General Sisi does what he is told, what is the problem?
wait Sisi is pro-America? So they pushed out one pro America president for another, with no change, I mean no visible change, at least to a not upto date observer, for what exactly?

Americans behind it? But isn't Mumbarak pro America as well?

And what is the problem here? Foreign policy is not a popularity contest, it is what serves national interests the best.

Very true, but that's not what's been said about China and Russia recently is it. Apparently it is very much a popularity contest.
 
wait Sisi is pro-America? So they pushed out one pro America president for another, with no change, I mean no visible change, at least to a not upto date observer, for what exactly?

When they saw that Muslim Brotherhood took control, they quickly re-installed another puppet. Lets just be glad that Egypt didn't fall into the hands of some ISIS-esque organisation.
 
All the talk of China making enemies, but why is nobody talking of the American's problem?

Right now two of the top three military nations don't like America in Russia and China. America has policies for both that makes them like them even less.

India by their alliance with Russia is no fan of America and being a member of BRICS, they are more closer to anti-America than "I'm loving it".

South America's Brazil is no fan of America by being in BRICS, and Africa has also turned away from its influence, to an extent.

Less we forget Middle East and Islamic nations are no fans of America.



Now you might say some of those are weak claims at best, and yes they are, but seeing as how Malaysia, Brunei and Indonesia to go with Australia are put into any discussion with China as our adversaries, and then there is the fact Taiwan is involved without ever providing information on why they also have a claim and why they won't exercises it against China, I'm thinking weak claims and non-existent ones are perfectly acceptable and could be on the table.


But the main point is this. Russia, China and India, we may not be the best friends, but we won't ever turn against each other FOR America, we might fight now and again, but it would be between ourselves, and not FOR America.

That's three of the top 5-10 nations right there, a bit more than Philippines, Vietnam, and whoever else is put there for China, no?

You raise a good point: what will keep America in the game now that it is being eclipsed both economically and militarily? To answer this question, I think we need to look at Europe. Europe is what's called a "lifestyle superpower." Except for a hysterical and fanatical few, Europe is admired by the whole world for what appears, on a superficial level, to be the supreme achievement of work-life balance. Europeans work a moderate amount, get paid generously, take generous vacations, and are taken care of cradle-to-grave by their governments.

But Europe is dying. Dying demographically, and dying economically. Its military is a shambles, even more so now that the pressure of the USSR is gone. Europe, it can be said, doesn't have a future right now.

The United States, however, has almost all of Europe's advantages and more. We aren't as generous as Europe, but we provide more opportunity. Our economy is more flexible and more dynamic, so even if we aren't growing as strongly as we used to, we are still growing, which is an achievement given the obstacles we face (i.e. the Democratic Party). We provide a comfortable lifestyle through a low cost of living (low energy costs, relatively low consumption taxes, relatively cheap land). And we simultaneously maintain one of the most powerful military machines on the planet.

But what attracts immigrants to the US? What attracts allies to tie their fate to ours?

Soft power. I used to underestimate this, because soft power isn't possible without hard power (economy, military), but whereas hard power is transactional, soft power endures. Our entertainment and culture have gained entry to--and even shaped--countries around the world. But most importantly, we stand for an idea. That idea differs depending on the target audience, but it can be anything from the American Dream (seize opportunity, work hard, and be rewarded) to liberal democracy, to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This provides a powerful attraction to the rest of the world, and to paraphrase the saying of admiration, developed countries want to be with us, and developing countries want to be us.

That's why Russia and China may find common ground in opposing the US, or transacting Russia's resources, but it's unlikely they will have the emotional pull towards each other that the US has with its allies. The multi-national coalitions that the US can assemble are unique in the world today, and even the large regional trade deals (TPP and TTIP) are largely American-driven affairs.

To be sure, much of the world looks to the United States for leadership because we're rich and powerful. But much of the world wants us to lead because of our value system. Despite the claims of the conspiracy theorists, we haven't engaged in military adventures abroad for the sake of resources. We have done them to spread our values of freedom. We have made mistakes, and we have failed in some of our endeavors. But even old enemies recognize the sincerity of our goals, and I'm optimistic that current enemies will as well, in time.
 
You raise a good point: what will keep America in the game now that it is being eclipsed both economically and militarily? To answer this question, I think we need to look at Europe. Europe is what's called a "lifestyle superpower." Except for a hysterical and fanatical few, Europe is admired by the whole world for what appears, on a superficial level, to be the supreme achievement of work-life balance. Europeans work a moderate amount, get paid generously, take generous vacations, and are taken care of cradle-to-grave by their governments.

But Europe is dying. Dying demographically, and dying economically. Its military is a shambles, even more so now that the pressure of the USSR is gone. Europe, it can be said, doesn't have a future right now.

The United States, however, has almost all of Europe's advantages and more. We aren't as generous as Europe, but we provide more opportunity. Our economy is more flexible and more dynamic, so even if we aren't growing as strongly as we used to, we are still growing, which is an achievement given the obstacles we face (i.e. the Democratic Party). We provide a comfortable lifestyle through a low cost of living (low energy costs, relatively low consumption taxes, relatively cheap land). And we simultaneously maintain one of the most powerful military machines on the planet.

But what attracts immigrants to the US? What attracts allies to tie their fate to ours?

Soft power. I used to underestimate this, because soft power isn't possible without hard power (economy, military), but whereas hard power is transactional, soft power endures. Our entertainment and culture have gained entry to--and even shaped--countries around the world. But most importantly, we stand for an idea. That idea differs depending on the target audience, but it can be anything from the American Dream (seize opportunity, work hard, and be rewarded) to liberal democracy, to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. This provides a powerful attraction to the rest of the world, and to paraphrase the saying of admiration, developed countries want to be with us, and developing countries want to be us.

That's why Russia and China may find common ground in opposing the US, or transacting Russia's resources, but it's unlikely they will have the emotional pull towards each other that the US has with its allies. The multi-national coalitions that the US can assemble are unique in the world today, and even the large regional trade deals (TPP and TTIP) are largely American-driven affairs.

To be sure, much of the world looks to the United States for leadership because we're rich and powerful. But much of the world wants us to lead because of our value system. Despite the claims of the conspiracy theorists, we haven't engaged in military adventures abroad for the sake of resources. We have done them to spread our values of freedom. We have made mistakes, and we have failed in some of our endeavors. But even old enemies recognize the sincerity of our goals, and I'm optimistic that current enemies will as well, in time.

The European model is fading, but not completely. The brands such as Lambo Gucci, Omega can still determine its own price, but those working in this industry is not the majority of Europeans.

The Europeans needs a new model, but will it achieve it? The answer is no at least in the short term. I noticed something about Europeans and NAs, they would rather earn nothing when the company collapses, then to earn something if they take a cut.

I understand their reasons like morgages and food prices, but the harsh realities still remains.


US doesn't face this problem now due to it's size, so its margin for error is far greater.


Soft power, people use to imitate Napoleon's Grand army, then it was Napoleon the third, and then it was Prussia's military, and now it's the Americans. Of course this included their dress, thinking and music as well.

Soft power goes away as soon as hard power leaves. See, the new Korean imaginings of Fifth gen fighter, Indian missile program, and quite a few things across the world, including the anti access strategy we made famous.

Why didn't we have such a "following" before? Because we had no hard power.

Look at TV, Chinese play more of a role now more than ever, not just in America.

This is just the start, as we keep amassing power we will continue to win "followers."


Ronaldinho has his buck teeth, but he's seen as a unique looking man, if he's ordinary, he just be another idiot with weird teeth. Peter Crouch said it best, when asked what he be if not a footballer, he said and I quote "virgin."


As to value system, American freedom was always there, but Prussian and later German discipline is viewed as the way to go as shown by Japan, China, some African states, and European states, including Italy.



America fighting for resources is right, but not for the things you think like oil. America is fighting for supremacy. Soft power, and economy is based on it. While some other nations may not be doing well on the international stage, but they still have prestige like Italy.

These nations rub off on US system as they are similar.

China however is completely different, if we want prestige we need to show the world of our power. Remember while repressive the Soviets still had allies in all corners of the globe.

China today focus more on discipline and the power of the nation, US focus on the individual power of the person.

Like NBA, US is the Lakers with Kobe, we are the Pistons of Billups and the Wallaces to go with RIP. Pistons rocked the Shaq and Kobe duo to prove team work can work. It depends on the pieces. A collective team of scrubs is still scrubs, but we got the right pieces, now we just need Rasheed.


But don't take this as a blame game, no, US needs this, every president swears to bring greatness to the nation, well, they need to act.

What I am saying is US is not some predestined nation, all it's influence, power and such comes from it's hard power, the moment it's gone and so will everything else. Though it will be more of a divide than a complete overhaul. I doubt the US will fall so quickly, at least this 100 years US will have a very big place in the world.
 
The European model is fading, but not completely. The brands such as Lambo Gucci, Omega can still determine its own price, but those working in this industry is not the majority of Europeans.

The Europeans needs a new model, but will it achieve it? The answer is no at least in the short term. I noticed something about Europeans and NAs, they would rather earn nothing when the company collapses, then to earn something if they take a cut.

I understand their reasons like morgages and food prices, but the harsh realities still remains.


US doesn't face this problem now due to it's size, so its margin for error is far greater.


Soft power, people use to imitate Napoleon's Grand army, then it was Napoleon the third, and then it was Prussia's military, and now it's the Americans. Of course this included their dress, thinking and music as well.

Soft power goes away as soon as hard power leaves. See, the new Korean imaginings of Fifth gen fighter, Indian missile program, and quite a few things across the world, including the anti access strategy we made famous.

Why didn't we have such a "following" before? Because we had no hard power.

Look at TV, Chinese play more of a role now more than ever, not just in America.

This is just the start, as we keep amassing power we will continue to win "followers."


Ronaldinho has his buck teeth, but he's seen as a unique looking man, if he's ordinary, he just be another idiot with weird teeth. Peter Crouch said it best, when asked what he be if not a footballer, he said and I quote "virgin."


As to value system, American freedom was always there, but Prussian and later German discipline is viewed as the way to go as shown by Japan, China, some African states, and European states, including Italy.



America fighting for resources is right, but not for the things you think like oil. America is fighting for supremacy. Soft power, and economy is based on it. While some other nations may not be doing well on the international stage, but they still have prestige like Italy.

These nations rub off on US system as they are similar.

China however is completely different, if we want prestige we need to show the world of our power. Remember while repressive the Soviets still had allies in all corners of the globe.

China today focus more on discipline and the power of the nation, US focus on the individual power of the person.

Like NBA, US is the Lakers with Kobe, we are the Pistons of Billups and the Wallaces to go with RIP. Pistons rocked the Shaq and Kobe duo to prove team work can work. It depends on the pieces. A collective team of scrubs is still scrubs, but we got the right pieces, now we just need Rasheed.


But don't take this as a blame game, no, US needs this, every president swears to bring greatness to the nation, well, they need to act.

What I am saying is US is not some predestined nation, all it's influence, power and such comes from it's hard power, the moment it's gone and so will everything else. Though it will be more of a divide than a complete overhaul. I doubt the US will fall so quickly, at least this 100 years US will have a very big place in the world.


Well said, and I agree that China has the potential to develop a lot of soft power, but it's not guaranteed. When Japan was a powerhouse economy in the 1980s, it spent billions of dollars (and still does) on overseas development aid, but countries pocketed that aid without much gratitude. Japan was unable to develop the soft power necessary to accrue allies, even with all of its hard power. Similarly, the USSR/Russia never developed anything more than a hard power connection with its allies (the Warsaw Pact was violently enforced, it was not a voluntary alliance), and the Non-Aligned Movement was at best a loose association of countries that the USSR bribed to hate the US.

It's a difficult thing to develop soft power, which is the power of attraction, without a value system. I already discussed the values that the US projects (some might say it's propaganda, but if so, it's very effective propaganda). China's foreign policy is explicitly amoral. To quote the ancient philosophers:

If there's something strange
in your neighborhood
Who ya gonna call?
GHOSTBUSTERS

Once a country realizes that the Ghostbusters are fictional, they turn to the United Nations. Then, inevitably, these countries realize that the United Nations is just as fictional as the Ghostbusters. It's then that countries turn to the US for help when they're in trouble (economically, through our IMF/World Bank system, or militarily). Even the EU has some soft power in that its customs union can serve as an enticement to countries to change themselves in order to join (e.g. Turkey). When China's the first call for these countries, or when countries adapt themselves to join China's system (yet to be determined, by the way), it will become apparent that China has the soft power necessary to become the next global hegemon.

Interesting times, indeed.
 
Well said, and I agree that China has the potential to develop a lot of soft power, but it's not guaranteed. When Japan was a powerhouse economy in the 1980s, it spent billions of dollars (and still does) on overseas development aid, but countries pocketed that aid without much gratitude. Japan was unable to develop the soft power necessary to accrue allies, even with all of its hard power. Similarly, the USSR/Russia never developed anything more than a hard power connection with its allies (the Warsaw Pact was violently enforced, it was not a voluntary alliance), and the Non-Aligned Movement was at best a loose association of countries that the USSR bribed to hate the US.

It's a difficult thing to develop soft power, which is the power of attraction, without a value system. I already discussed the values that the US projects (some might say it's propaganda, but if so, it's very effective propaganda). China's foreign policy is explicitly amoral. To quote the ancient philosophers:

If there's something strange
in your neighborhood
Who ya gonna call?
GHOSTBUSTERS

Once a country realizes that the Ghostbusters are fictional, they turn to the United Nations. Then, inevitably, these countries realize that the United Nations is just as fictional as the Ghostbusters. It's then that countries turn to the US for help when they're in trouble (economically, through our IMF/World Bank system, or militarily). Even the EU has some soft power in that its customs union can serve as an enticement to countries to change themselves in order to join (e.g. Turkey). When China's the first call for these countries, or when countries adapt themselves to join China's system (yet to be determined, by the way), it will become apparent that China has the soft power necessary to become the next global hegemon.

Interesting times, indeed.

It's guaranteed, I mean nothing is 100%, but it's as safe as anything else. Major differences between us and Japan.


Japan more or less represent the same as America, and being almost identical it cannot beat America at America's own game.

Japan was never really a weak nation post Meiji, so it wasn't in the Soviet bloc, and don't have the history that we have with these nations.

Militarily, Japan never achieved independence, not just because of their peace constitutions, but also because they can't over shadow the US in any meaningful way and thus would be pointless.

Unfortunately history and experience proves, major accomplishments such as an overwhelming military victory is essential in establishing a nation. Japan can't have that anytime soon.



In contrast, people look at China as a very different nation to the US, but unlike the USSR, China has achieved prosperity, while some may argue freedom and human rights, those are mostly from countries that already got prosperity, oh and also India for some reason.

China represent rising from the ashes, in a sense the American dream is dead because it is achieved but the Chinese dream is very much alive as developing nations across the world from Africa to SA, to India and Asia wants the Chinese reality.

So in terms of soft power unlike the USSR, we offer far more, the Chinese model. We don't force anyone to adapt anything, but you can always hear from media talking about the Chinese miracle and how it should be implemented in their country.


Militarily I see quite a few opportunity for Chinese weapons to be on show, Vietnam, Philippines, North Korea, Africa, even Japan.

With our close to completion of several important projects that would plug all the major holes in integrated combat system(Chinese future soldiers), transport helicopters, Z-20, advanced fighters, J-20, heavy transports Y-20, airliner like C919, heavy crusiers Type 55, advanced multirole frigates type 54B/57, new 95 and 96 nuke subs, 001a and 002 carriers and much much more will be done by 2020 and before.

Our military will be able to bring death in a way similar to US can, but not as numerous as the US or as technically advanced compared to the absolute latest gear, not Burke but Zumwalt.


Most importantly, China isn't the old communist culture like Soviet or ourselves anymore, people want fast cars, man enhanced babes, loads of cash, fancy apartments, and opportunities.

Our lifestyle is very desirable for a lot of people, and as we enter the semi developed status in the 2020s, a lot of our major cities will be developed, which means the things I listed above.

A recent Chinese crap rom com started with girls in Rome with Gucci and Prada, yea I saw it, don't ask me why, I'm not proud of it, I hate it when someone has that much control over my actions.





As to being called, the Russians called us, Africans call us, we may not be the first choice, but that will change with time, if it were me I won't call us first either.

But let's take a look, RIMPAC, SCO, and a lot of other international exercises will be organized by or contribute greatly by China due to our expanding budget and capabilities. We will have more and more exercises with more and more countries.

BRICS bank, Asia development bank, and our commercial banks are making a dent, to see more give it more time.

ASEAN+3, APEC, FTAs, and a few other things we are working on to counter TPP, these are important steps to being an economic powerhouse.

Ebola, SARS, and a few other scares, China is front and center in these things.

So while EU is still a force and America the king, we are making a name for ourselves and as our situation strengthens, so too will our pull be.




Bottomline, China is starting to show our prosperity and power, we are starting to challenge the notion of what America stands for, and we are being in the middle of a few organizations that do have the abilities to make changes, however small or large.

While your comparison is sound, they would only apply if USSR or Japan really resembles China in more ways than the superficial.
 
It's guaranteed, I mean nothing is 100%, but it's as safe as anything else. Major differences between us and Japan.


Japan more or less represent the same as America, and being almost identical it cannot beat America at America's own game.

Japan was never really a weak nation post Meiji, so it wasn't in the Soviet bloc, and don't have the history that we have with these nations.

Militarily, Japan never achieved independence, not just because of their peace constitutions, but also because they can't over shadow the US in any meaningful way and thus would be pointless.

Unfortunately history and experience proves, major accomplishments such as an overwhelming military victory is essential in establishing a nation. Japan can't have that anytime soon.



In contrast, people look at China as a very different nation to the US, but unlike the USSR, China has achieved prosperity, while some may argue freedom and human rights, those are mostly from countries that already got prosperity, oh and also India for some reason.

China represent rising from the ashes, in a sense the American dream is dead because it is achieved but the Chinese dream is very much alive as developing nations across the world from Africa to SA, to India and Asia wants the Chinese reality.

So in terms of soft power unlike the USSR, we offer far more, the Chinese model. We don't force anyone to adapt anything, but you can always hear from media talking about the Chinese miracle and how it should be implemented in their country.


Militarily I see quite a few opportunity for Chinese weapons to be on show, Vietnam, Philippines, North Korea, Africa, even Japan.

With our close to completion of several important projects that would plug all the major holes in integrated combat system(Chinese future soldiers), transport helicopters, Z-20, advanced fighters, J-20, heavy transports Y-20, airliner like C919, heavy crusiers Type 55, advanced multirole frigates type 54B/57, new 95 and 96 nuke subs, 001a and 002 carriers and much much more will be done by 2020 and before.

Our military will be able to bring death in a way similar to US can, but not as numerous as the US or as technically advanced compared to the absolute latest gear, not Burke but Zumwalt.


Most importantly, China isn't the old communist culture like Soviet or ourselves anymore, people want fast cars, man enhanced babes, loads of cash, fancy apartments, and opportunities.

Our lifestyle is very desirable for a lot of people, and as we enter the semi developed status in the 2020s, a lot of our major cities will be developed, which means the things I listed above.

A recent Chinese crap rom com started with girls in Rome with Gucci and Prada, yea I saw it, don't ask me why, I'm not proud of it, I hate it when someone has that much control over my actions.





As to being called, the Russians called us, Africans call us, we may not be the first choice, but that will change with time, if it were me I won't call us first either.

But let's take a look, RIMPAC, SCO, and a lot of other international exercises will be organized by or contribute greatly by China due to our expanding budget and capabilities. We will have more and more exercises with more and more countries.

BRICS bank, Asia development bank, and our commercial banks are making a dent, to see more give it more time.

ASEAN+3, APEC, FTAs, and a few other things we are working on to counter TPP, these are important steps to being an economic powerhouse.

Ebola, SARS, and a few other scares, China is front and center in these things.

So while EU is still a force and America the king, we are making a name for ourselves and as our situation strengthens, so too will our pull be.




Bottomline, China is starting to show our prosperity and power, we are starting to challenge the notion of what America stands for, and we are being in the middle of a few organizations that do have the abilities to make changes, however small or large.

While your comparison is sound, they would only apply if USSR or Japan really resembles China in more ways than the superficial.

China will find its own way, as it has in the past. It will be interesting to see what system it develops to try and attract allies, but I suspect that sort of planning is at least a decade away, as China still seems focused internally at the moment.

I have to ask: what are "man enhanced babes"?
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Back
Top Bottom