The Big 'Make In India' Submarine Hunt 3.0

[SQ8]

I don't see why Tokyo would resist the sale of Soryu-Class to New Delhi in the event that the latter approached Tokyo on these subs.

It will have to be a very hypocritical interpretation of clause #3 here.. or clause #3 will have to abolished.

1. Under the Three Principles, "arms" exports to the following countries or regions shall not be permitted:
   (1) communist bloc countries,
   (2) countries subject to "arms" exports embargo under the United Nations Security Council's resolutions, and
   (3) countries involved in or likely to be involved in international conflicts.
   

 

[Bang Galore]

I go for Scorpene.. If you ask me, there never should be a tender,.. A waste of time.. Just order the next 6 for scorpene..
No wastage of time.

Why not give the French the key to treasury and just wash our hands off the whole matter? Among the reason for a new tender is that the French have been ripping us a new orifice by increasing prices on everything citing cost escalation. To negotiate the prices down for additional Scorpenes, we need to show them that we have other options.

Th, but we shouldn't be naive about the fact that they are driven by profits not national security or interests.

Naive is if you believe that public sector companies are driven by national security interests.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

It will have to be a very hypocritical interpretation of clause #3 here.. or clause #3 will have to abolished.

1. Under the Three Principles, "arms" exports to the following countries or regions shall not be permitted:
   (1) communist bloc countries,
   (2) countries subject to "arms" exports embargo under the United Nations Security Council's resolutions, and
   (3) countries involved in or likely to be involved in international conflicts.

"International conflicts" is such a wide term. If the narrow interpretation is given to it, it could apply to practically every country in the world

 

[sancho]

No dude, while I agree that they will do it only for profit, I think the intention of becoming a long term defence player is there among many private players. They can be expected to use the tech as core R&D capabilities rather than as just something they are using temporarily for profit. I definitely think that is the case with L&T.

The question is for whom? ADA, DRDO and HAL are mainly aiming on being long term defence players for the Indian market. Privat companies don't have that preference, as I told you before, TATA is producing parts of Sikorsky helicopters for profit, not for the Indian defence market. They will do it for other private foreign companies too, but not to develop an own helicopter, just as they already market their howitzer on foreign markets, which shows again that they are not focusing on the Indian market or defence, but on selling their products to whichever market that generates profits.

Naive is if you believe that public sector companies are driven by national security interests.

They have no option, since they are under control of the government! They can't reject tenders because they don't offer enough profit can they? HAL would have done the Avro replacement even if the licence production would be for 30 aircrafts only, because they have to as simple as that!

 

[Bang Galore]

The question is for whom? ADA, DRDO and HAL are mainly aiming on being long term defence players for the Indian market. Privat companies don't have that preference, as I told you before, TATA is producing parts of Sikorsky helicopters for profit, not for the Indian defence market. They will do it for other private foreign companies too, but not to develop an own helicopter, just as they already market their howitzer on foreign markets, which shows again that they are not focusing on the Indian market or defence, but on selling their products to whichever market that generates profits.

Tata, L&T or Bharat Forge take a risk with their own money, public sector companies have a captive customer who also forks out money for them regardless of output. If any of the private companies get even limited funding from the government with the assurance of orders, they will pretty much do what it takes.

They have no option, since they are under control of the government! They can't reject tenders because they don't offer enough profit can they? HAL would done the Avro replacement even if the licence production would be for 30 aircrafts only, because they have to as simple as that!

They don't have to give a damn about that dirty word called profit because it is little more than an academic term for them. Not like they will have to shut down or run out of money... HAL can produce even one aircraft if you want, give them some Rs. 25,000 crores & see...... Who will shut down HAL because it doesn't have money or because their costs are ridiculous....? No one asks them why their costs for building the Su30MKI is more than what it would cost if directly bought from Russia.....you think any of the private companies will be allowed such a sweet deal......?

 

[Guynextdoor2]

The question is for whom? ADA, DRDO and HAL are mainly aiming on being long term defence players for the Indian market. Privat companies don't have that preference, as I told you before, TATA is producing parts of Sikorsky helicopters for profit, not for the Indian defence market. They will do it for other private foreign companies too, but not to develop an own helicopter, just as they already market their howitzer on foreign markets, which shows again that they are not focusing on the Indian market or defence, but on selling their products to whichever market that generates profits.



They have no option, since they are under control of the government! They can't reject tenders because they don't offer enough profit can they? HAL would have done the Avro replacement even if the licence production would be for 30 aircrafts only, because they have to as simple as that!

Well I think if we ease the regulations we might yet see an Indian Lockheed Martin. They too operate for profit and yet it works out neatly in most cases.

To those asking about the confusion whether Soryu can be sold to India or not.. As long as India meets these conditions, it can be sold the Soryu.
MOFA: Japan's Policies on the Control of Arms Exports

Under the Three Principles, "arms" exports to the following countries or regions shall not be permitted:

1. (1) communist bloc countries,
   (2) countries subject to "arms" exports embargo under the United Nations Security Council's resolutions, and
   (3) countries involved in or likely to be involved in international conflicts

Out of the three only (3) is a very grey area, considering that India is HIGHLY likely to be involved in international conflicts.

There is a changed reality Japan is looking at. The rise of China has made the Japanese position a bit more aggressive. I think it's tragic actually- it was very possible for the Chinese to come to a negotiated agreement with the Japs since the latter seemed largely reconciled to a purely self- defence posture on military affairs.

 

[Aepsilons]

Thats it we're not Brothers anymore !

If I hear anything of the sort again I'd have you commit harakiri with a tooth-pick !

Both India and Pakistan are strategic partners of Japan. In fact, the nations that border the IOR are our strategic partners.

Pakistan - Hindustan - Bangladesh Zindabad !

 

[sancho]

Well I think if we ease the regulations we might yet see an Indian Lockheed Martin. They too operate for profit and yet it works out neatly in most cases.

Just with the difference that the US defence market is the biggest in the world, so it's natural for US companies to aim on the local market than abroad, if they can generate the bulk of the profits there. Not to mention that they have a very competitive situation there, with several large defence players like Boeing, Northrop, or LM, while we have only the public sector so far, so we need to get the privat sector in with more aim on R&D and the Indian market to have similar benefits as the US have.

 

[Aepsilons]

It will have to be a very hypocritical interpretation of clause #3 here.. or clause #3 will have to abolished.

1. Under the Three Principles, "arms" exports to the following countries or regions shall not be permitted:
   (1) communist bloc countries,
   (2) countries subject to "arms" exports embargo under the United Nations Security Council's resolutions, and
   (3) countries involved in or likely to be involved in international conflicts.

Very poignant. And i think that would be one barrier to sale of Soryu subs, unless India explicitly states that these would not be used for instigating a war with any of our relevant partners in the IOR.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Why not give the French the key to treasury and just wash our hands off the whole matter? Among the reason for a new tender is that the French have been ripping us a new orifice by increasing prices on everything citing cost escalation. To negotiate the prices down for additional Scorpenes, we need to show them that we have other options.



Naive is if you believe that public sector companies are driven by national security interests.

You are right sirji, but again its a headache for the navy to use different platforms.. An uniformity of the platforms will help them perform better with respect to spares, training , ToT etc
Again, its not only the complete mistake of the Frenchies. The Mumbai docks, didnt have the technology or the facility to build the submarine, and they had to provide it before submarine construction started.. Mistake lies on the both sides..
Wont we save a few millions, if not a billion, if we save time on these projects by directly giving to the French?
If not for them, then AMUR class is the best bet. If our navy goes for the Russian ones, one need to wait and watch,

 

[Bang Galore]

You are right sirji, but again its a headache for the navy to use different platforms.. An uniformity of the platforms will help them perform better with respect to spares, training , ToT etc

I have always remained unimpressed by the argument on the costs of having different platforms. The costs are clearly offset by the risk of having too many eggs in a single basket and allowing that much leverage with a single vendor.. If we are producing our own stuff, it makes sense. If we are importing, we just need to accept the additional costs of having multiple platforms. True for the IN as well as the IAF.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Very poignant. And i think that would be one barrier to sale of Soryu subs, unless India explicitly states that these would not be used for instigating a war with any of our relevant partners in the IOR.

Two things in the post above: one is the loaded word "instigating" and the other is what constitutes an explicit statement. So far as Japan is concerned: neither of them seems to bother them, since Japan has even initiated the first moves towards some Defence Co-Operation with India. While no such effort has been made with any of India's possible adversaries in a potential conflict.

That being said; the Soryus are not in contention, they are simply too expensive. While the Shin-Meiwas are in the running solely because of their capabilities and the lack of similar aircraft world-wide.

 

[RISING SUN]

soryu is not gonna be make in india.

we should go for add on 6 scorpenes with aip and start an ssn design project today.

make sure they have working aips on time. whichever is earliest, DRDO's or MESMA.

Matevyou are confused. You are saying that we need to for 6 scorpian AIP subs then directly jump to SSN then saying make sure they have MESMA or our own. What I am getting from your post is that you are saying we should go for AIP sub which is not feasible at all. May be you wanted to say that India inducts its six addon SSKs with MESMA or our own. But anyways coming on topic just 12 scorpian subs are not sufficient for coastal ops. We need atleast 24 SSKs with AIP and long range sensor suite plus offensive weapons. For SSKs we are trying to make Arihant design more compact. At least six boats will be direct descendent of Arihant class boats. Then three enlarged SSNs are on card. But time frame for this many boats will be close to 2035. Thank you.

 

[Cat Shannon]

Matevyou are confused. You are saying that we need to for 6 scorpian AIP subs then directly jump to SSN then saying make sure they have MESMA or our own. What I am getting from your post is that you are saying we should go for AIP sub which is not feasible at all. May be you wanted to say that India inducts its six addon SSKs with MESMA or our own. But anyways coming on topic just 12 scorpian subs are not sufficient for coastal ops. We need atleast 24 SSKs with AIP and long range sensor suite plus offensive weapons. For SSKs we are trying to make Arihant design more compact. At least six boats will be direct descendent of Arihant class boats. Then three enlarged SSNs are on card. But time frame for this many boats will be close to 2035. Thank you.

i'm saying diesel electric subs with aip. mesma or drdo. scorpenes will save time and money on training and logistics, but now i feel type 216 or something else shouldn't be a problem too.

what is the right term for scorpene, type 214 type diesel electric subs ? i get confused with the naming. do pardon and apply the right one. :p

 

[RISING SUN]

i'm saying diesel electric subs with aip. mesma or drdo. scorpenes will save time and money on training and logistics, but now i feel type 216 or something else shouldn't be a problem too.

what is the right term for scorpene, type 214 type diesel electric subs ? i get confused with the naming. do pardon and apply the right one. :p

petroliyam based boats are called SSKs. Nuke attack subs are called SSN. Nuke strategic subs(long range missile) are called SSGN. Ballstic missile nuke subs are called SSBN. Thank you.