The Big 'Make In India' Submarine Hunt 3.0

[Hareeshu IA MBT]

German 212s and Scorpene mix is deadly.

But we are not getting German non magnetic hulled 212 but single hull export configuration . Lesser configuration than the Mother Boat which it is derived from

 

[Aepsilons]

Not really, agree to push for the sale is not an agreement. Infact nothing was achived in that regard during the visit, but the more important point is, that this is the sale of an unarmed MPA and if that is so complicated, it's simply unrealistic that the government of Japan will sell India once of it's top of the notch weapon systems.

Its a step in the right direction and considering Japan has eliminated military arms sales restrictions, the mere fact that India and Japan had established the parameters for sale, or tech transfer is achievement in itself. India is our strategic ally and partner, one in which Japan's Government has been keen in developing ties through various ODA projects as well as other government-to-government initiatives. I don't see why Tokyo would resist the sale of Soryu-Class to New Delhi in the event that the latter approached Tokyo on these subs.

 

[Hareeshu IA MBT]

Not really, agree to push for the sale is not an agreement. Infact nothing was achived in that regard during the visit, but the more important point is, that this is the sale of an unarmed MPA and if that is so complicated, it's simply unrealistic that the government of Japan will sell India once of it's top of the notch weapon systems.



We ordered 6 under the P75 tender, the P75I was a follow tender and was suppose to add 6 more subs 2 of them directly from the winning vendor and Scorpenes were the frontrunners. However, this tender is scrapped and reports suggests that all 6 should be produced in India now, which is most likely an economical decision again, since it's not cost-effective to build a 2nd production line for just 4 subs.

Yes am aware of P75i but don't you think we must order extra 3/4 Scorpene subs as stop gab of delay ? Apart from 12 orderes

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I go for Scorpene.. If you ask me, there never should be a tender,.. A waste of time.. Just order the next 6 for scorpene..
No wastage of time.

 

[Iggy]

Isnt it better we let foreign company to build 2-3 submarines, while we absorb the technology to build it here.. We made the same mistake in scorpion deal now repeating it again..

 

[Guynextdoor2]

That's why I also would prefer a team up between Indian public and privat companies (MDL and L&T for example) to develop an indigenous SSK, based on the experienced they gained so far. Instead of hyping the make in India policy now, only to include privat industry in the licence production of foreign subs. This scrapping and re-issuing of the tender simply makes no sense, not for fast addition of subs for IN, nor for making India self reliant in submarine building.

I don't even mind it being an entirely private affair. I'm sure the likes of L&T can design and build with the relevant tech brought in by DRDO.

 

[sancho]

Its a step in the right direction

One step, but neither an agreement yet nor does the US-2 add any defence related capability to our forces. It's a political deal in the first place, to show improving ties, but as said it's an unarmed aircraft and Japan is insisting on the "Civil" use and not selling us arms here. So it's a long shot to get anything actually defence related and the sale of the Soryu class at this point is simply unrealistic and we all know that not signing the NPT is one of the core issues for Japan with India.

Yes am aware of P75i but don't you think we must order extra 3/4 Scorpene subs as stop gab of delay ? Apart from 12 orderes

Of course, that's why I hoped the new MoD will select a winner now and make a fast order, preferably of Scorpenes, but the MoD or better the PM has other interests, which are not necessarily the best for the forces.

I don't even mind it being an entirely private affair. I'm sure the likes of L&T can design and build with the relevant tech brought in by DRDO.

Sure, if the MoD gives propper funding L&T can do it alone too, but it would be silly of us, to not use the know how and experience MDL gained so far wouldn't it? Just as limiting the production of such an indigenous sub to just L&T would limit ourselfs in production time as well as spreading the know how. Look at the aero sector, our key problem is the lack of competition and overdependence on public companies to develop and produce. Shifting the overdependence to privat industry only wouldn't make things better, since it's still overdependence. That's why we need both, public and private players that can offer our forces solutions, be it in competition with eachother, or in joint developments.

 

[Hareeshu IA MBT]

Sure ... but why don't we order 3/4 more from France directly ? Since we already crossed the deadline on P75. I will be happy when we get at least 25 new submarines in the next 10 years .

 

[Guynextdoor2]

One step, but neither an agreement yet nor does the US-2 add any defence related capability to our forces. It's a political deal in the first place, to show improving ties, but as said it's an unarmed aircraft and Japan is insisting on the "Civil" use and not selling us arms here. So it's a long shot to get anything actually defence related and the sale of the Soryu class at this point is simply unrealistic and we all know that not signing the NPT is one of the core issues for Japan with India.



Of course, that's why I hoped the new MoD will select a winner now and make a fast order, preferably of Scorpenes, but the MoD or better the PM has other interests, which are not necessarily the best for the forces.



Sure, if the MoD gives propper funding L&T can do it alone too, but it would be silly of us, to not use the know how and experience MDL gained so far wouldn't it? Just as limiting the production of such an indigenous sub to just L&T would limit ourselfs in production time as well as spreading the know how. Look at the aero sector, our key problem is the lack of competition and overdependence on public companies to develop and produce. Shifting the overdependence to privat industry only wouldn't make things better, since it's still overdependence. That's why we need both, public and private players that can offer our forces solutions, be it in competition with eachother, or in joint developments.

Well the problem with PSUs is that we rarely see what has happened in terms of 'knowhow'. Most of the time they take the contracts, crank out the stuff and the move into the next license production contract. At least with an L&T we know they'll keep it for next line, in fact they'll build the production lines without funding also.

 

[Archie]

best plan would be to order additional scorpenes, and be done with it
12 scorpenes would be the best solution and also faster in terms of induction, no need to spend 3 yrs in silly negotiations

 

[sancho]

Well the problem with PSUs is that we rarely see what has happened in terms of 'knowhow'. Most of the time they take the contracts, crank out the stuff and the move into the next license production contract. At least with an L&T we know they'll keep it for next line, in fact they'll build the production lines without funding also.

They will move on only if enough profit is certain, just look at the Avro replacement and how hesitant the privat companies were for years. It is mainly our disappointment with government owned companies, that makes us thrust privat companies more, but we shouldn't be naive about the fact that they are driven by profits not national security or interests.
For HAL the indigenous development of their LUH is an improvement for the country and the forces, while the licence production of a foreign LUH would had been a necessity, to provide the forces with what they needed, no matter if it's create more problems for HAL or if it's creates more benefits. For privat companies however, the licence production of these foreign LUH, is only a matter of business to create benefits. They don't absorb ToT or know how to develop an own LUH in future, nor to provide Indian forces with solutions. If they see more profit in developing an helicopter according to the needs of export customers, rather than specific needs of Indian forces, they will do it.

 

[sathya]

Scorpene won't be ordered before few of the manufactured one enter the navy
So no more scorpene order till 2017-18

Even if ordered late it wouldn't matter , since last sub of previous order will be completed by 2023-24

 

[Guynextdoor2]

They will move on only if enough profit is certain, just look at the Avro replacement and how hesitant the privat companies were for years. It is mainly our disappointment with government owned companies, that makes us thrust privat companies more, but we shouldn't be naive about the fact that they are driven by profits not national security or interests.
For HAL the indigenous development of their LUH is an improvement for the country and the forces, while the licence production of a foreign LUH would had been a necessity, to provide the forces with what they needed, no matter if it's create more problems for HAL or if it's creates more benefits. For privat companies however, the licence production of these foreign LUH, is only a matter of business to create benefits. They don't absorb ToT or know how to develop an own LUH in future, nor to provide Indian forces with solutions. If they see more profit in developing an helicopter according to the needs of export customers, rather than specific needs of Indian forces, they will do it.

No dude, while I agree that they will do it only for profit, I think the intention of becoming a long term defence player is there among many private players. They can be expected to use the tech as core R&D capabilities rather than as just something they are using temporarily for profit. I definitely think that is the case with L&T.

 

[SQ8]

To those asking about the confusion whether Soryu can be sold to India or not.. As long as India meets these conditions, it can be sold the Soryu.
MOFA: Japan's Policies on the Control of Arms Exports

Under the Three Principles, "arms" exports to the following countries or regions shall not be permitted:

1. (1) communist bloc countries,
   (2) countries subject to "arms" exports embargo under the United Nations Security Council's resolutions, and
   (3) countries involved in or likely to be involved in international conflicts

Out of the three only (3) is a very grey area, considering that India is HIGHLY likely to be involved in international conflicts.

 

[Armstrong]

Its a step in the right direction and considering Japan has eliminated military arms sales restrictions, the mere fact that India and Japan had established the parameters for sale, or tech transfer is achievement in itself. India is our strategic ally and partner, one in which Japan's Government has been keen in developing ties through various ODA projects as well as other government-to-government initiatives. I don't see why Tokyo would resist the sale of Soryu-Class to New Delhi in the event that the latter approached Tokyo on these subs.

Thats it we're not Brothers anymore !

If I hear anything of the sort again I'd have you commit harakiri with a tooth-pick !