Teaching ‘Western Values’ in China

[AndrewJin]

I never said they don't.

But, the dialects are indeed gradually fading away.

Fading away...Funny words
I see no tendency of fading away. Ask a foreigner who studies Chinese to travel around China. At least we cannot directly hear English words in our languages. Every time I hear Hindi, I find you guys really cannot live without English words.
Is it more harmful of a dialect FADING away or a total language fading away?

 

[AndrewJin]

I never said they don't.

But, the dialects are indeed gradually fading away.



I am very well aware of the trend, and am hence getting inclined to believe that China will only liberalize if India industrializes.

Also, you do need the "developing democratic world." These are world's major markets. Access to markets is the biggest geo-political tool of today's world.

As for the global world, it is never restricted only to economics. Ideas and Values are exchanged too. Heck, they have almost always been exchanged. Buddhism travelled to China.

As for your confidence, I am happy that you are confident as you should be. Just realize one thing, do whatever is in your interests, whatever suits you without ideology, regardless of its "westernness". Even if you have to adopt democracy.

As for your system, I have been repeating, that I do indeed like many parts of your system. But there are certain aspects that can be replaced. Frankly, even I don't have much regard for the process of voting in your leader. In that way, I am not a democrat. But, I am indeed very optimistic about the need and advantages of the rule of law, and freedom of speech.

My comprehension of a very long English paragraph is very bad.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Fading away...Funny words
I see no tendency of fading away. Ask a foreigner who studies Chinese to travel around China. At least we cannot directly hear English words in our languages. Every time I hear Hindi, I find you guys really cannot live without English words.
Is it more harmful of a dialect FADING away or a total language fading away?

Depends on what you call a language and a dialect. Generally, any two speech mutually unintelligible are called languages. In that sense, Cantonese, Mandarin, Teochew, are all languages, of which Cantonese and Teochew are indeed fading. The situation is more dire for Taishanese, Hunanese etc.

Also, Hindi isn't really fading. It is actually getting rather strong, because of the increased connectivity in India, Hindi is eating up other regional languages. What is happening though is that Hindi has mutated a LOT. There are many many loan words from English nowadays. Some people even call it Hinglish.

We should be confident in our own values, and publicly criticise those so-called liberals. I'm just wondering why there are so many hilarious one in Weibo posting hilarious comments. I guess those Democrats are hired by Chinese government to deliberately make funny comments.


If u see those in a tourist village, no surprise.
My mother payed 20 yuan to rent one to take pictures.
NEVER in my life have I seen a Chinese wearing traditional wears in daily life.

On the one hand, you speak about Pragmatism, and then you are talking about "our values" and "liberals". This is where I, as a hard core pragmatist, will disagree with your stand. Don't label anyone liberal, and most of all, don't blindly say that you shouldn't accept "their" values.

Values are values. Pick and choose. I think Freedom of Speech is one institution that will fundamentally help China. I am not saying Democracy. I am saying unfettered Freedom of Speech.

 

[AndrewJin]

I never said they don't.

But, the dialects are indeed gradually fading away.



I am very well aware of the trend, and am hence getting inclined to believe that China will only liberalize if India industrializes.

Also, you do need the "developing democratic world." These are world's major markets. Access to markets is the biggest geo-political tool of today's world.

As for the global world, it is never restricted only to economics. Ideas and Values are exchanged too. Heck, they have almost always been exchanged. Buddhism travelled to China.

As for your confidence, I am happy that you are confident as you should be. Just realize one thing, do whatever is in your interests, whatever suits you without ideology, regardless of its "westernness". Even if you have to adopt democracy.

As for your system, I have been repeating, that I do indeed like many parts of your system. But there are certain aspects that can be replaced. Frankly, even I don't have much regard for the process of voting in your leader. In that way, I am not a democrat. But, I am indeed very optimistic about the need and advantages of the rule of law, and freedom of speech.

The typical way of analyzing China is without even understanding Chinese. Most Sinologists suck in writing or speaking Chinese. How can u know the tendency? How do you know the changes of dialects when Putonghua is taught in school? How do you know the thoughts of general Chinese people? Some foreigners are living in China for more than 20 years but still don't get how China work. How can u believe what you know about China is true?

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

The typical way of analyzing China is without even understanding Chinese. Most Sinologists suck in writing or speaking Chinese. How can u know the tendency? How do you know the changes of dialects when Putonghua is taught in school? How do you know the thoughts of general Chinese people? Some foreigners are living in China for more than 20 years but still don't get how China work. How can u believe what you know about China is true?

This is not what foreigners say. This is what Chinese say. I have never heard one Chinese saying, and I have talked to many, that many regional dialects are not fading due to Mandarin strength.

Will you be the first to claim such? That local dialects are NOT slowly falling out of speech.

 

[Yizhi]

@Bussard Ramjet

i'm curious, what kind of answer do you expect from Chinese members here?

 

[AndrewJin]

Freedom of speech, immigration, blah blah blah. Is that all u care about when your compatriots are living in the hell and most so-called Indian middle class live a worse life than me who doesn't belong to so-called Chinese middle class?

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

It is factually incorrect that China had ever been "isolated." Silk Road is a testament to the connectedness. Zheng He is another testament. You had so many people regularly intruding into your empire all the time. Yes there were times when the king tried isolating his empire, but they were less, and ended in abrupt disaster like the one during Qing Empire.

Yup chinese don‘t live on the Mars I know that，but comparing the history with another oldest civ，Iran，you ’ll get the picture，no need to be too literal.

Also, censorship has nothing to do with being isolated or not. Censorship is the willful rejection and moderation of what can be said within a system

that I must correct myself to be more precise，I was meant to say the Great Fire Wall of the internet，also，the censorship for western values，not censorship in general

Also, China is only further opening up, not regressing back. By all standards and measures.

not by the way of thinking，the mindset and how we see ourselves culturally，although the regressing will be subtle

 

[AndrewJin]

This is not what foreigners say. This is what Chinese say. I have never heard one Chinese saying, and I have talked to many, that many regional dialects are not fading due to Mandarin strength.

Will you be the first to claim such? That local dialects are NOT slowly falling out of speech.

You just need to LISTEN to any Chinese speaking! Changes of a dialect is fading away? Am I speaking the same Wuhanese like 100 years ago?

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

@Bussard Ramjet

i'm curious, what kind of answer do you expect from Chinese members here?

I want their comments about the article. To be precise, I want to know why they should not have Freedom of Speech, especially in Academic Matters. Why should their right to say and express their opinion (under certain limits involving libel, defaming etc.) not be guaranteed?

You just need to LISTEN to any Chinese speaking! Changes of a dialect is fading away? Am I speaking the same Wuhanese like 100 years ago?

You misunderstand me. I am saying precisely that Wuhanese, at least the one 100 years back is beginning to fade. Your speech may be converging towards Mandarin, and perhaps your children may speak almost perfect Standard Putonghua.

 

[AndrewJin]

@Bussard Ramjet

i'm curious, what kind of answer do you expect from Chinese members here?

Actually he doesn't want an answer. His topics are actually very limited, but his intention is very obvious, a way much smarter than his compatriots here.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Freedom of speech, immigration, blah blah blah. Is that all u care about when your compatriots are living in the hell and most so-called Indian middle class live a worse life than me who doesn't belong to so-called Chinese middle class?

This is impolite to say the least.

India's per capita GDP is roughly one fifth that of China's. China's per capita GDP is one eighth that of United States's.

So if we are living in "hell" compared to you. Then you are living in a "bigger hell" compared to Americans.

Also, the difference is bigger compared on GDP per capita On PPP basis. There, our percapita GDP is around a third yours, while yours is around a fourth compared to American's.

(This is not to take into account the wealth inequality, which, when measured by Gini Coefficient is actually larger in the case of China compared to India)

Also, we are poor now. Because we took time to realize the importance of development, but we are beginning to realize. I am sure our Growth rate on average will average around 8% for the next 20 years.

 

[AndrewJin]

I want their comments about the article. To be precise, I want to know why they should not have Freedom of Speech, especially in Academic Matters. Why should their right to say and express their opinion (under certain limits involving libel, defaming etc.) not be guaranteed?



You misunderstand me. I am saying precisely that Wuhanese, at least the one 100 years back is beginning to fade. Your speech may be converging towards Mandarin, and perhaps your children may speak almost perfect Standard Putonghua.

You know nothing about our dialect, in your theory, Wuhanese is fading since it was invented. Can we come back to your immigration thread?

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Actually he doesn't want an answer. His topics are actually very limited, but his intention is very obvious, a way much smarter than his compatriots here.

I do honestly want an answer, and I am engaging you in debate. As said, I would never say you adopt any kind of wholesome ideology. It is rather a pointed question about some aspects of different institutions that may be beneficial to you.

You still haven't answered about the reasons why CCP has to censor so much, if it anyways enjoys legitimacy.

 

[AndrewJin]

This is impolite to say the least.

India's per capita GDP is roughly one fifth that of China's. China's per capita GDP is one eighth that of United States's.

So if we are living in "hell" compared to you. Then you are living in a "bigger hell" compared to Americans.

Also, the difference is bigger compared on GDP per capita On PPP basis. There, our percapita GDP is around a third yours, while yours is around a fourth compared to American's.

(This is not to take into account the wealth inequality, which, when measured by Gini Coefficient is actually larger in the case of China compared to India)

Also, we are poor now. Because we took time to realize the importance of development, but we are beginning to realize. I am sure our Growth rate on average will average around 8% for the next 20 years.

Yes, 20 years. Five years surpassing Shanghai. congrats!
Apparently u don't care, just like your most compatriots, they don't care.