Teaching ‘Western Values’ in China

[Rajaraja Chola]

Chinese are really pragmatic. If ten years later wearing Chinese traditional wears becomes pragmatic, they will do it. No matter what I wear(I am now traveling in Central China), I am very conservative about Chinese culture. No matter how modern Kunshan is, people there are still obeying the old Confucius values. And tomorrow I will take a coach on the super modern expressway from a small village to the provincial capital where I will transfer to HSR back home. Still, no matter how modern my life is, I adhere to traditional values, not communist values or western values.
And modern=western?

Modern= people born nowadays.

 

[AndrewJin]

Maybe Chinese government should invest in real 50cent people and post good things to counter these guys.

The more we know about the world, the more confident we will be.
Ten yeas ago, I was a fan of ROC, an advocate of democracy.

Modern= people born nowadays.

So wearing modern wears doesn't equal to western wears. Expressway and HSR are not initiated by Chinese, but it's not against tradition.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Best to ignore him whatever he is.

He will probably jump to immigration having had enough from questioning CCP's legitimacy.

In the meantime, Indian democracy continues to remain corrupt, nepotist, inefficient and discriminatory.

Every system has varying degrees of corruption, nepotism, inefficiency, and discrimination. Also, just rallying such terms around don't make much sense, since people have different interpretations for the word "democracy."

India has a political and social system, largely a legacy of British and Western Influences, which does indeed present us with various challenges.

Also, I don't think the system failed at all! Rather, it has generally worked quite well, taking into account the diversity of India etc. The unique circumstances of India.

Also, I don't "question" CCP legitimacy. I question its policies, atleast some of them. I am actually very impressed by many of the other policies. We can have a discussion on them, about the virtues of many CCP policies. It is just that we won't have much to talk then, because both sides, you and me, would be agreeing that they are good.

 

[AndrewJin]

@Rajaraja Chola btw, Zhouzhuang sucks, dirty, crowded, noisy, chaotic.
I was in Hongcun village the day before yesterday, a UNESCO heritage site in Central China.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Yes, this thread is mere a chemical primer like all his old ones. Suppose India has all, cheers! We are lucky we don't have them.


Thanks for the new word. You guys really know more English words than any English native speakers I've known.

I have never, ever, ever brought India and China into the discussion of the other.

Both are very different countries, born under very different circumstances, and having a very different historical narrative. Also the relative success or failure of one, doesn't stop me from talking about anyone of them.

According to me, in general both of the countries have been successful, with China leading here. I even doubt the singular aspect of being successful in general, because the success and failures are also divergent. India has been successful in some areas, while China has been more successful in some other areas.

As for language. To be honest, it is very imprecise to say that someone has left behind his language. Due to the conditions of India, we had to adopt English as a unifying medium. Even you people did abolish all the local languages and dialects spoken. Everyone was told to speak putonghua, taking away the beauty of the diversity of Sino languages and dialects. Be it Cantonese, Shanghainese. etc.

But, yes overall, disregarding the relative minute peculiarities, we have generally adopted English much better than Chinese have. You seem to think that is a bad thing. I am not really sure. English is indeed the defacto language of the world.

If I had to choose between Western and Indian values, I would go for the former.

Luckily, we have our own time-tested values.

This whole dichotomy of values, be it labelled "Western" or "Chinese" or "Indian" is extremely ideological.

Their are values. While, yes arguably some values can be different among cultures, they are much more affected by socio-economic conditions. Also, any value isn't limited to any group. Rather, all sorts of values are possessed by all groups, and yet people can form a slightly different value set, by forming their own unique permutation of those values.

 

[大汉奸柳传志]

Maybe Chinese government should invest in real 50cent people and post good things to counter these guys.

They do，and in a good old chinese fashion

FYI the number of foreign 50 cents hiked after the AIIB humiliation，so we all know who‘s behind them

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

Is there Indian values? They're proud of remnants of British colonisation and proud of speaking fluently English which distinguish "high-end" Indians from "low-end" Indians.

Again, there is nothing called "Indian values." Nor is there anything called "Chinese values."

Values are highly mutable and are evolved via historic experience and circumstances. Hence, yes the so called "Indian values" have been changing and evolving regularly based on experience and circumstances, so are "Chinese values". Don't forget, one of the centre pieces of your culture, Buddhism, was initially vigorously opposed by local rulers, as foreign influence. So was Buddhism opposed by Japanese, as a foreign undesired influence. But, eventually you accepted and indigenized it, and then actually developed it.

But, that said, I accept that there is this tendency in Indians of discrimination based on one's fluency in English. But, it is not hard to understand. It is usually the rich and more educated people who speak better English. It is just a correlation, found due to various reasons (we can go in depth if you so desire). Humans, in general, have a tendency to associate things that are related to rich and famous, as better by default.

Case in hand, the Chinese (and even Indian) obsession by fairer and paler skin. It is hypothesized that the fad started because it was only the noble class that was able to maintain their skin color, because laborers had to toil under the sun. Hence, a person's skin color at that time was reasonable determinant of one's status.

 

[AndrewJin]

I have never, ever, ever brought India and China into the discussion of the other.

Both are very different countries, born under very different circumstances, and having a very different historical narrative. Also the relative success or failure of one, doesn't stop me from talking about anyone of them.

According to me, in general both of the countries have been successful, with China leading here. I even doubt the singular aspect of being successful in general, because the success and failures are also divergent. India has been successful in some areas, while China has been more successful in some other areas.

As for language. To be honest, it is very imprecise to say that someone has left behind his language. Due to the conditions of India, we had to adopt English as a unifying medium. Even you people did abolish all the local languages and dialects spoken. Everyone was told to speak putonghua, taking away the beauty of the diversity of Sino languages and dialects. Be it Cantonese, Shanghainese. etc.

But, yes overall, disregarding the relative minute peculiarities, we have generally adopted English much better than Chinese have. You seem to think that is a bad thing. I am not really sure. English is indeed the defacto language of the world.



This whole dichotomy of values, be it labelled "Western" or "Chinese" or "Indian" is extremely ideological.

Their are values. While, yes arguably some values can be different among cultures, they are much more affected by socio-economic conditions. Also, any value isn't limited to any group. Rather, all sorts of values are possessed by all groups, and yet people can form a slightly different value set, by forming their own unique permutation of those values.

As far as I know, English is only spoken among "high-end" Indians. And no matter what sort of Chinese dialect, they enjoy the same written forms, no matter one is from Canton or Beijing, they learned the same textbook in ancient China. And East Asian counties are not dependent on the "world language" and they are among the worst in English, especially spoken English. When u adopt another language, it's not simply about a language but a way of thinking.
English to me is only a tool by which I can understand English papers and learn new knowledge. Learning it as a mere subject is OK, but totally using it in school is NO.

 

[AndrewJin]

I have never, ever, ever brought India and China into the discussion of the other.

Both are very different countries, born under very different circumstances, and having a very different historical narrative. Also the relative success or failure of one, doesn't stop me from talking about anyone of them.

According to me, in general both of the countries have been successful, with China leading here. I even doubt the singular aspect of being successful in general, because the success and failures are also divergent. India has been successful in some areas, while China has been more successful in some other areas.

As for language. To be honest, it is very imprecise to say that someone has left behind his language. Due to the conditions of India, we had to adopt English as a unifying medium. Even you people did abolish all the local languages and dialects spoken. Everyone was told to speak putonghua, taking away the beauty of the diversity of Sino languages and dialects. Be it Cantonese, Shanghainese. etc.

But, yes overall, disregarding the relative minute peculiarities, we have generally adopted English much better than Chinese have. You seem to think that is a bad thing. I am not really sure. English is indeed the defacto language of the world.



This whole dichotomy of values, be it labelled "Western" or "Chinese" or "Indian" is extremely ideological.

Their are values. While, yes arguably some values can be different among cultures, they are much more affected by socio-economic conditions. Also, any value isn't limited to any group. Rather, all sorts of values are possessed by all groups, and yet people can form a slightly different value set, by forming their own unique permutation of those values.

And people don't speak local dialects? Another delusion you have absorbed from your media?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

No. This is the same kind of dress I saw, except the colours were in red . I was pleasantly surprised to see it

But nevertheless I want to see the rural life of China if I get a chance again



Really? Amazing indeed. I mean in Tamil Nadu, even during important days offices, universities allows guys and girls in traditional wear and the dressing have mostly remained the same as long as I know the history of Tamil Nadu (and south Indian states) in general

Today the Hanfu (汉服) style is mostly used for some graduations and ceremonies. Qing and ROC/early PRC is mostly used for movies and some fashionable wedding photos (my cousin had him and his wife in ROC/early PRC style clothing for his wedding photo). Nobody likes the 1980's anywhere, so lets just not talk about that. Then today, we have the typical clothing but still not totally western; I can tell who is ABC and who is actual Chinese (or maybe Malaysian Chinese) just by looking at 2 things: their skin color (most real Chinese are much lighter skinned) and their clothing style, since most ABCs wear clothes white people style, always wear casual jeans instead of slacks, dresses, etc. and have no sense of real fashion.

Ming Dynasty, up to 1644

Qing Dynasty, 1644-1911

ROC/Early PRC, 1911-1960

Cultural Revolution and Early Economic Reform, 1960-1995

Today, 1995-now

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

The simple answer lies in our history，China is an isolated civilization for thousands of years at the far side of the world，we were not very good at communicating with others，nor did we feel the need to，until less than 200 years ago. We were just minding our own business without a single care for rest of the world，till the “isolation” became one of our identity. So many people mistake that for political reasons，but in fact，it‘s cultural and civilizational. We just enjoy being isolated，to a degree.

So things won’t loosen up eventually，on the contrary，censorship will stay and become stronger in the future，when the nationals are getting richer and growing more confidence，China will be more isolated.

It is factually incorrect that China had ever been "isolated." Silk Road is a testament to the connectedness. Zheng He is another testament. You had so many people regularly intruding into your empire all the time. Yes there were times when the king tried isolating his empire, but they were less, and ended in abrupt disaster like the one during Qing Empire.

Also, China is only further opening up, not regressing back. By all standards and measures.

Also, censorship has nothing to do with being isolated or not. Censorship is the willful rejection and moderation of what can be said within a system. Isolation is closing off that system on its boundaries. While in the present hyper-global world, there can be some correlation, they are definitely not the same thing.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I would say that it is a great loss that we do not have uniquely Chinese clothing anymore. In ROC/early PRC, the reason we have 中山装 and 旗袍 is because it was a uniquely designed Chinese style clothing but still modernized, not westernized. You wear that people know you are Chinese. Now, you have to guess who is Chinese or Korean or Japanese.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

As far as I know, English is only spoken among "high-end" Indians. And no matter what sort of Chinese dialect, they enjoy the same written forms, no matter one is from Canton or Beijing, they learned the same textbook in ancient China. And East Asian counties are not dependent on the "world language" and they are among the worst in English, especially spoken English. When u adopt another language, it's not simply about a language but a way of thinking.
English to me is only a tool by which I can understand English papers and learn new knowledge. Learning it as a mere subject is OK, but totally using it in school is NO.

1. The dialect are always discriminated against. They are actually fading out. Similar is the case with many Indian dialects and languages.

2. While the written language is the same. You know it is based on Standard Mandarin. Colloquial Cantonese, will use a slightly different way of writing things, even with the same characters.

3. English is a compulsory language through-out schooling in India. While, yes conversational English is spoken better as you go high up in the socio-economic ladder, it is simply due to need and necessity. For example, there is no way one can study Science using Hindi language. NO WAY! While, there is decent chance that you can not only study Science but do a lot more in Chinese/Korean/Japanese.

4. No body doubts English as the world language. No one! So while, you may try to change that, the reality of today lies the same.

 

[AndrewJin]

It is factually incorrect that China had ever been "isolated." Silk Road is a testament to the connectedness. Zheng He is another testament. You had so many people regularly intruding into your empire all the time. Yes there were times when the king tried isolating his empire, but they were less, and ended in abrupt disaster like the one during Qing Empire.

Also, China is only further opening up, not regressing back. By all standards and measures.

Also, censorship has nothing to do with being isolated or not. Censorship is the willful rejection and moderation of what can be said within a system. Isolation is closing off that system on its boundaries. While in the present hyper-global world, there can be some correlation, they are definitely not the same thing.

zhenghe and Silk Road has nothing to do with your argument. Since the whole "democratic" developing countries suck, no reason not to be isolated. Economy is economy, ideology is ideology. Hyper-global world is not a world of universal ideology.
The more I know about the world, the more I am confident in our own one. After college, I totally changed my precious ideology. In China, you know how people generally argue with democrat? Quote India.

 

[Bussard Ramjet]

And people don't speak local dialects? Another delusion you have absorbed from your media?

I never said they don't.

But, the dialects are indeed gradually fading away.

zhenghe and Silk Road has nothing to do with your argument. Since the whole "democratic" developing countries suck, no reason not to be isolated. Economy is economy, ideology is ideology. Hyper-global world is not a world of universal ideology.
The more I know about the world, the more I am confident in our own one. After college, I totally changed my precious ideology. In China, you know how people generally argue with democrat? Quote India.

I am very well aware of the trend, and am hence getting inclined to believe that China will only liberalize if India industrializes.

Also, you do need the "developing democratic world." These are world's major markets. Access to markets is the biggest geo-political tool of today's world.

As for the global world, it is never restricted only to economics. Ideas and Values are exchanged too. Heck, they have almost always been exchanged. Buddhism travelled to China.

As for your confidence, I am happy that you are confident as you should be. Just realize one thing, do whatever is in your interests, whatever suits you without ideology, regardless of its "westernness". Even if you have to adopt democracy.

As for your system, I have been repeating, that I do indeed like many parts of your system. But there are certain aspects that can be replaced. Frankly, even I don't have much regard for the process of voting in your leader. In that way, I am not a democrat. But, I am indeed very optimistic about the need and advantages of the rule of law, and freedom of speech.