South Korea Prods North by Dropping Leaflets Telling of Mideast Protests

[gambit]

You asked and I provided. No need to be a sarcastic B***h

I would think that there would be no need for me to be explicit as to who should North Korea be compared against. Never thought that a list of Third World-ers would be presented.

 

[below_freezing]

And you do not consider the possibility that you underestimate the South Koreans?

It's not underestimation. It's the truth. South Korea's army looks tough on the surface but it will dissolve away like sand in any real war. They're great for one thing though, inflating PLA kill counts. With South Korea's inability to manufacture its own machine tools, its 1 tiny semiconductor foundry, its shameful dependence on imported weapons, poor morale, geographic disadvantage, dependence on imported food, and high population density, in a real war, South Korea is just another insect.

 

[ephone]

My home province borders with NK and the thought that NK's fcuking lunatic may one day detonates a nuke there has already made me sick. I think the best for NK is to have a revolution that gives him a treatment what Romanian gave to Nicolae Ceauşescu. After that, we can then sit down and talk.

Look North Korea doesn't have a territorial dispute with China. That ALONE makes it okay in my books!


I see you were assuming NK on the offensive. I also doubt they can supply an offensive like a modern motorized army.

 

[ephone]

Being in that behind already make it impossible to defend. NK deserves those sarcastic comments. It deserves even harsher one.

You asked and I provided. No need to be a sarcastic B***h

 

[gambit]

It's not underestimation. It's the truth. South Korea's army looks tough on the surface but it will dissolve away like sand in any real war. They're great for one thing though, inflating PLA kill counts. With South Korea's inability to manufacture its own machine tools, its 1 tiny semiconductor foundry, its shameful dependence on imported weapons, poor morale, geographic disadvantage, dependence on imported food, and high population density, in a real war, South Korea is just another insect.

That is funny considering Samsung is my largest competitor. For example...

Samsung and Toshiba squeeze NAND market ? Channel Register

Samsung and Toshiba dominate the NAND flash market, leaving little for anyone else, first quarter revenue figures show.

A ranking of flash suppliers' revenues in US dollars by iSuppli for the first quarter of this year shows Samsung leading the pack with a 38.5 per cent share, closely followed by Toshiba with 33.8 per cent. Put these two together and there's just 27.7 per cent of flash scraps left for everyone else to fight over.

We do not see China anywhere in the NAND market share ranking. A foundry is not an indicator of technological prowess in the semicon industry. A foundry is a contractor, not an innovator. I used to work for Santa Clara Plastics, now SCP Global Tech, as a field service/install engineer for fab/wafer processing robotics.

Foundry model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In microelectronics, the foundry model refers to the separation of a semiconductor fabrication plant operation from an integrated circuit design operation, into separate companies or business units.

Pure-play semiconductor foundry is a company that does not offer a significant amount of IC products of its own design, but instead operates semiconductor fabrication plants focused on producing ICs for other companies.

My SCP crew and I have been to or installed to just about all the major semicon manufacturers on that list. The South Koreans, as far as being innovators of highly commoditized products like DRAM or NAND, beat any Chinese semicon competitor any day. As far as this subject goes, you are talking from sheer ignorance and inexperience. We can safely assume you are talking about other subjects standing on the same shaky foundation.

 

[below_freezing]

That is funny considering Samsung is my largest competitor. For example...

Samsung and Toshiba squeeze NAND market ? Channel Register

We do not see China anywhere in the NAND market share ranking. A foundry is not an indicator of technological prowess in the semicon industry. A foundry is a contractor, not an innovator. I used to work for Santa Clara Plastics, now SCP Global Tech, as a field service/install engineer for fab/wafer processing robotics.

Foundry model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My SCP crew and I have been to or installed to just about all the major semicon manufacturers on that list. The South Koreans, as far as being innovators of highly commoditized products like DRAM or NAND, beat any Chinese semicon competitor any day. As far as this subject goes, you are talking from sheer ignorance and inexperience. We can safely assume you are talking about other subjects standing on the same shaky foundation.

You're talking about ignorance? A foundry actually manufactures the conductors. Not an innovator? You think the processing of the materials is easy? In fact, this only shows your ignorance. Do you even know the complete steps of manufacture for a semiconductor device? The actual design of the chip is not important. You can reverse engineer it. The important part is the manufacture process which can never be reverse engineered.

You're far underestimating the innovation and science behind a foundry and far overestimating the designing of chips. I hope you've been to a SMIC facility.

 

[gambit]

You're talking about ignorance?

Yes...YOURS...

A foundry actually manufactures the conductors.

Now YOUR ignorance is truly revealing with this word 'conductors'.

Not an innovator?

No. A foundry only build upon specifications whose source designs are from others, not of their own.

You think the processing of the materials is easy? In fact, this only shows your ignorance. Do you even know the complete steps of manufacture for a semiconductor device?

Better than you do as I have relevant experience in the industry, whereas you are still in school under daddy's money.

The actual design of the chip is not important. You can reverse engineer it. The important part is the manufacture process which can never be reverse engineered.

Now this is truly an ignorant claim. Manufacturing processes can be 'reverse engineer' and it has been done many times. It is the 'recipe' or the processes that govern the creation of the 'chip', that are secret and cannot be easily 'reverse engineered', even if the 'chip' or die itself is dissected under a scanning electron microscope (SEM) and all layers are documented.

You're far underestimating the innovation and science behind a foundry and far overestimating the designing of chips. I hope you've been to a SMIC facility.

How do you know I have not?

When I was with SCP, a potential customer is routinely provided with single unit of any equipment for evaluation with the vendor provide on-site support. If a tool cannot handle a 'recipe' it will be out of contention and another vendor's tool will be evaluated. A foundry's engineering team is 'innovative' only in the sense that they are masters of their own facility on how flexible they are able to manufacture according to the a customer's need. A foundry has many customers and they are under strict legal as well as physical constraints on how many they can handle at any time.

Your argument already felled apart due to the simple fact that the South Koreans are the world's leader in many areas of semiconductor manufacturing, from production to designs, and China is nowhere close to being a contender to the South Koreans or the Japanese. Stop talking out of your rectum.

 

[below_freezing]

Yes...YOURS...


Now YOUR ignorance is truly revealing with this word 'conductors'.


No. A foundry only build upon specifications whose source designs are from others, not of their own.


Better than you do as I have relevant experience in the industry, whereas you are still in school under daddy's money.


Now this is truly an ignorant claim. Manufacturing processes can be 'reverse engineer' and it has been done many times. It is the 'recipe' or the processes that govern the creation of the 'chip', that are secret and cannot be easily 'reverse engineered', even if the 'chip' or die itself is dissected under a scanning electron microscope (SEM) and all layers are documented.


How do you know I have not?

When I was with SCP, a potential customer is routinely provided with single unit of any equipment for evaluation with the vendor provide on-site support. If a tool cannot handle a 'recipe' it will be out of contention and another vendor's tool will be evaluated. A foundry's engineering team is 'innovative' only in the sense that they are masters of their own facility on how flexible they are able to manufacture according to the a customer's need. A foundry has many customers and they are under strict legal as well as physical constraints on how many they can handle at any time.

Your argument already felled apart due to the simple fact that the South Koreans are the world's leader in many areas of semiconductor manufacturing, from production to designs, and China is nowhere close to being a contender to the South Koreans or the Japanese. Stop talking out of your rectum.

Are you kidding? In your own foundry model link, it shows that Japanese and Korean foundries are not even in top 5. It even shows SMIC having triple the revenue of Dongbu, not 1 Japanese company on the list, and TSMC taking 50% of all revenue.

"Now this is truly an ignorant claim. Manufacturing processes can be 'reverse engineer' and it has been done many times. It is the 'recipe' or the processes that govern the creation of the 'chip', that are secret and cannot be easily 'reverse engineered', even if the 'chip' or die itself is dissected under a scanning electron microscope (SEM) and all layers are documented."

The process is exactly what the foundries know, because they're the ones that do it since they're in the business of the physical chip creation from wafer to (sometimes though this is also outsourced frequently) packaging and testing.

"When I was with SCP, a potential customer is routinely provided with single unit of any equipment for evaluation with the vendor provide on-site support. If a tool cannot handle a 'recipe' it will be out of contention and another vendor's tool will be evaluated. A foundry's engineering team is 'innovative' only in the sense that they are masters of their own facility on how flexible they are able to manufacture according to the a customer's need. A foundry has many customers and they are under strict legal as well as physical constraints on how many they can handle at any time."

Yes, this is irrelevant to South Korea's industrial skill in semiconductor manufacture.

 

[gambit]

Are you kidding? In your own foundry model link, it shows that Japanese and Korean foundries are not even in top 5. It even shows SMIC having triple the revenue of Dongbu, not 1 Japanese company on the list, and TSMC taking 50% of all revenue.

You continue to make a fool out of yourself. A major semiconductor company like Samsung or Toshiba have their own fabs. What make you think that everyone must outsource their manufacturing? Because an ignorant and inexperience university student like yourself say so...??? A foundry can be used in conjunction with one's own fabs if the desire is to gain market share quickly and if there are finances available to contract the foundries. In fact, Samsung and Toshiba do contract out their fabs for others as well. So just because Chinese and Taiwanese foundries are top in the list, that does not mean the South Koreans and the Japanese are behind in semicon manufacturing.

The process is exactly what the foundries know, because they're the ones that do it since they're in the business of the physical chip creation from wafer to (sometimes though this is also outsourced frequently) packaging and testing.

Wrong...You are ignorant about the whole thing and are trying in vain to look 'knowledgeable'. The manufacturing process of laying down photo-etch, chemical and/or vapor deposition, strip resist, etc...etc...are already well known for different designs such as DRAM, NAND/NOR, or CPU. What make each unique are the recipes which govern which tool to be used at which step to create each design. Foundries do not create those 'recipes'. They follow their customers' instructions. In that sense, foundries are indicators of a country learning the semicon manufacturing, not the designs themselves.

Yes, this is irrelevant to South Korea's industrial skill in semiconductor manufacture.

It is not irrelevant. Foundries must have sufficient capital expenditures in the 'technological treadmill' in order to offer themselves as viable contractors to potential customers. Major semicon companies such as Samsung or Toshiba does the same for their fabs. What make foundries different is that they must be innovative on how to manage their tools for different designs that have different recipes. These multi-million dollars tools are not mobile. They are permanently installed onto seismic compensated floorings.

A wafer batch may have to travel from one end of the fab to the other end and many points in between several times before it can be shipped back to the customer as finished products, either in wafer form or extracted and packaged 'chips'. Such travel times costs money so foundry managers must concentrate on optimizing their tools and facility layouts to make themselves attractive to potential clients as to how quickly a foundry can complete a wafer. They cannot afford to spend time on innovative designs of new semicon products or improvements of existing ones. If any wants to do that, he would have to take himself out of the foundry business. A semicon manufacturer who design and build his own products faces the same problems for every new design he may have. The solutions are to contract out, build a new fab, or retool the existing ones.

Your argument felled apart a long time with the fact that Samsung is the world's largest commodity semicon producer, from design to manufacture. Intel does not come close because Intel focuses primarily on processor and other related products and these specialized products make Intel a lot of money. There are little valid comparisons between the two because they have different focus. When it comes to semicon products, China is nothing more than a contractor, not a producer of new designs or even an innovator of/from existing designs.

Give it up, you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

 

[below_freezing]

Is NAND flash memory supposed to be something high tech? Are you seriously saying that processors and flash memory have the same requirements in terms of complexity? Are you seriously implying that China is incapable of making NAND flash memory?

 

[gambit]

Is NAND flash memory supposed to be something high tech? Are you seriously saying that processors and flash memory have the same requirements in terms of complexity?

No...NAND is hardly the most sophisticate memory design. However, for now it is proven to be the most versatile. It is now considered to be a commodity, just like DRAM. Its design and manufacture is not as complex as processor.

Are you seriously implying that China is incapable of making NAND flash memory?

Of course not. But here is where you are seriously wrong...As highlighted below...

It's not underestimation. It's the truth. South Korea's army looks tough on the surface but it will dissolve away like sand in any real war. They're great for one thing though, inflating PLA kill counts. With South Korea's inability to manufacture its own machine tools, its 1 tiny semiconductor foundry, its shameful dependence on imported weapons, poor morale, geographic disadvantage, dependence on imported food, and high population density, in a real war, South Korea is just another insect.

Your overall argument and denigration of South Korea's semicon industry is based upon ignorance and inexperience. You do not know and did not bother to do proper background research as to what is a semicon 'foundry' fabrication plant. You then jumped to conclusion that South Korea's semicon industry is behind China's based upon that flawed and ignorant understanding.

A 'foundry' serves many customers. Tool makers like SCP Global Tech or Applied Materials or Verigy sells to anyone who has the cash, whether the customer is a 'foundry' or a manufacturer like Samsung or Toshiba. A major semicon manufacturer can have its own fab and that fab would NOT qualify as a 'foundry' fab simply because that manufacturer is not in the 'foundry' business. That company design and manufacture its own products. A 'foundry' only manufacture and it does it according to specs given by the customer.

Samsung is not under any obligation to cast its many 'fabs' as 'foundry fabs' because the 'foundry' business is not core to Samsung so if Samsung has the world's largest market share in NAND, DRAM and is among the world's top producers in other semicon products, which it is, then it is obvious that South Korea's semicon industry is far more advanced than China's regardless of how many 'foundry' business are there in South Korea. If it is possible to have a financial estimate of how much money Samsung's and Toshiba's many fabs made for the companies, they would dwarf all of the foundry fabs in China and Taiwan.

You are young, still in school under daddy's money, and inexperienced in life. The only thing you have to contribute to any debate is rhetorics and often they are meaningless to those of us who have been around more than just the university sandbox, that and your racism. Your expulsion is appropriate. We do not need your kind here.

 

[no_name]

Is NAND flash memory supposed to be something high tech? Are you seriously saying that processors and flash memory have the same requirements in terms of complexity? Are you seriously implying that China is incapable of making NAND flash memory?

NAND refers to a type of binary logic operation.
NAND is preferred because it can be used as the basic building block of all logical circuits, since all other binary logic gates (like AND, OR, XOR, NOT) can be build using only NAND gates in various arrangements, so you don't have to make different gates for different logic circuit. Any boolean operation can be fully expressed using only NAND gates.

 

[Chogy]

How anyone can defend the despotism that is North Korea is baffling. The Dear Leader has engineered a cult of personality that makes that of Hitler look like a frat boy leading a gang of beer-chugging cronies at a party. There is so much wrong with North Korea that it would take pages to list them all.

I even had a debate once with one of the handful of North Koreans allowed on line over who initiated the Korean conflict. He insisted it was the "Imperialist running dogs" who launched "a war of conquest against the peace-loving North Koreans" and it was only Dear Leader Senior who saved everyone. He did not acknowledge China's assistance, so all the Chinese who fought in that war were spat upon.

The fact that NK hasn't crumbled to dust is a testament to the intensity of the brainwashing the citizens undergo. They start in kindergarten, learning nursery rhymes like "On your knees, Imperialist Americans, the Dear Leader will humiliate you" etc.

It would be in the best interest of everybody, especially the NK's, if that bizarre and twisted regime were to fall.

 

[ephone]

I have to say that fatty is really human scum.

I hope NK people will rise up and overthrow that SOB. After that, China and NK can have a real whole range of co-operations.

And NK can march into market economy then.

How anyone can defend the despotism that is North Korea is baffling. The Dear Leader has engineered a cult of personality that makes that of Hitler look like a frat boy leading a gang of beer-chugging cronies at a party. There is so much wrong with North Korea that it would take pages to list them all.

I even had a debate once with one of the handful of North Koreans allowed on line over who initiated the Korean conflict. He insisted it was the "Imperialist running dogs" who launched "a war of conquest against the peace-loving North Koreans" and it was only Dear Leader Senior who saved everyone. He did not acknowledge China's assistance, so all the Chinese who fought in that war were spat upon.

The fact that NK hasn't crumbled to dust is a testament to the intensity of the brainwashing the citizens undergo. They start in kindergarten, learning nursery rhymes like "On your knees, Imperialist Americans, the Dear Leader will humiliate you" etc.

It would be in the best interest of everybody, especially the NK's, if that bizarre and twisted regime were to fall.

 

[StingRoy]

I hope NK people will rise up and overthrow that SOB. After that, China and NK can have a real whole range of co-operations.
And NK can march into market economy then.

The problem is that people in NK probably aren't aware of the uprisings at all and they are all living in the illusion created by this man.