SOUTH AFRICA BLOCKS NEW ARMS TRANSFERS TO SAUDI ARABIA AND UAE

[313ghazi]

Interesting stance for Denel to take. I suspect it'll all blow over in a while.

 

[Turan09]

Indeed, he thinks our industry was born overnight. It has been there for many decades since 1930's. He is on my ignore list and i cannot get to his camel level; not wasting my time. Throwing money wont get you the knowledge, people must have gray cells; something these people fail to see over millenium. Some of the folks were paid to get the IP which is where the problem has started from. Like I said before, we have founded their backbone for 'their' industry - yet all R&D with prototyping is still being done here; all lock stock knock down kits go from here just to be assembled and labelled there.
Matter will be resolved; not a big deal.


Yes, but problem in Erdogan has ego and KSA/UAE are at odds against his vision.

The issue is very clearly because of prior incidents in Rwanda that we are seeing this come up when tonnes of weapons showed up with the Tutsis under Kagame via Uganda.

I don't care about their feelings but if they don't work with Turkish State, they will stay as a weak puppet of US. And their masters will try to discipline them when they cross the line a little bit. But of course it is their own decision... Today SA spends more money than Russia, but you see what they have.

All of these UAE weapons developed to the best of my knowledge independently without JV and especially without South Africa.
@denel can shove it

Thunder P32

Thunder P4

Desert Sting 5

Desert Sting 16

Desert Sting 35

The two missiles behind the Desert Sting 16 are called Giant-4EP and Giant-4SFP but aren't listed on Halcon website so must be in very earl development.

@Turan09
The main thing South Africa was selling UAE was long range bombs(40km and 120km range). UAE can't produce those right now but I'm sure can probably produce something similar if it really wants in a few years. No clue if seeker is indigenous, but I know seeker must have been given via TOT because company has blueprints. 1 billion dollar deal at Dubai airshow 2019 will expand everything from employees, to production, and opens up funding for R&D, and could allow Halcon to focus on new products and eventually become UAE version of Roketsan.

Bombs are easy to produce. Seeker is not. And normally countries just let you assamble it. But of course there is several sources you can brough seekers, so you can produce it in the end.
The real problem for you now is, today there is war in both Yemen and Libya and you just lose some of your firepower. Let's see what are they going to buy for stop-gap solution. Your real problem is timing...

 

[dani92]

They lose

 

[cabatli_53]

I don't care about their feelings but if they don't work with Turkish State, they will stay as a weak puppet of US. And their masters will try to discipline them when they cross the line a little bit. But of course it is their own decision... Today SA spends more money than Russia, but you see what they have.


Bombs are easy to produce. Seeker is not. And normally countries just let you assamble it. But of course there is several sources you can brough seekers, so you can produce it in the end.
The real problem for you now is, today there is war in both Yemen and Libya and you just lose some of your firepower. Let's see what are they going to buy for stop-gap solution. Your real problem is timing...

In guidance kits, I don’t suppose they have capability to produce thermal batteries. No need to mention fuel chemicals for missiles. Warheads of PGM’s are also another area they are outsourcing the production I believe. It is impossible for them to have Laser designator/receiver tech. IIR and Rf sensors are inside the expertise of numbered sources. Chip and processors are also critical technologies their arms are tied. I believe they can’t produce anything without a shadow producer in background. US is milking them with so called ToT gossips and I believe It was the Denel who provides all those things to make them assemble some munitions in their own facilities. We will see what they will do without Denel. KSA asked Turkey to share the tech of Teber and LGK guided munitions a few months ago. This may be the result of S.Africa’s reaction prohibiting Denel to proceed the cooperation with them.

 

[denel]

In guidance kits, I don’t suppose they have capability to produce thermal batteries. No need to mention fuel chemicals for missiles. Warheads of PGM’s are also another area they are outsourcing the production I believe. It is impossible for them to have Laser designator/receiver tech. IIR and Rf sensors are inside the expertise of numbered sources. Chip and processors are also critical technologies their arms are tied. I believe they can’t produce anything without a shadow producer in background. US is milking them with so called ToT gossips and I believe It was the Denel who provides all those things to make them assemble some munitions in their own facilities. We will see what they will do without Denel. KSA asked Turkey to share the tech of Teber and LGK guided munitions a few months ago. This may be the result of S.Africa’s reaction prohibiting Denel to proceed the cooperation with them.

yes, entire 'indeginous' KSA and UAE have been done with Denel's expertise; as you correctly noted it goes far more than munitions, their military vehicles etc, UAVs etc. They cannot produce academic papers of value; here we are taking of complex systems. Let us leave it at that, arguing with that other fellow is hitting a brick wall; may be they can produce good schwarma but that is all but even that with someone's else's help.
It will be blown over soon, but IP stealing is something right now very sensitive especially after what indian Guptas tried to hijack VR Laser and Denel; as a friend of mine noted - SAMI tried to bully their way thru and this is not their home ground where they can do what they please; it will be negotiated on proper terms.

@denel
Someone should make a thread about guptas in UAE,I would but you are more well informed then me on the issue.

Man, you need to read thru Gupta papers or the entire investigations via Maverick. All there to fill gigabytes.
Now they are trying to do health care like they tried to do here and university campus with bogus degrees to poor Uzbeks. I guess they must have found someone like Zuma there in the Uzbek polit bureau.

 

[Philip the Arab]

In guidance kits, I don’t suppose they have capability to produce thermal batteries. No need to mention fuel chemicals for missiles. Warheads of PGM’s are also another area they are outsourcing the production I believe. It is impossible for them to have Laser designator/receiver tech. IIR and Rf sensors are inside the expertise of numbered sources. Chip and processors are also critical technologies their arms are tied. I believe they can’t produce anything without a shadow producer in background. US is milking them with so called ToT gossips and I believe It was the Denel who provides all those things to make them assemble some munitions in their own facilities. We will see what they will do without Denel. KSA asked Turkey to share the tech of Teber and LGK guided munitions a few months ago. This may be the result of S.Africa’s reaction prohibiting Denel to proceed the cooperation with them.

Do you have a way to prove anything you just stated? I could say the exact same about Turkey, but without evidence I would be a fool.

A lot of Denel and other South African defense company's engineers have actually left South Africa for UAE which profiles I have found on LinkedIn. I can link many profiles if you want, they are taking defense experience with them and using it to develop weapon systems.


1. Reiner Roberts currently working at Halcon Systems
https://www.linkedin.com/in/reinier-robberts-42508647/
Company Name

• Denel Dynamics
  Total Duration 19 yrs 10 mos
  • Title Program Manager
    
  • Dates Employed Jan 1996 – Dec 2008
    Employment Duration13 yrs
    Location Pretoria
  • Title System Integration and T&E Manager
    Dates Employed Mar 1989 – Dec 1995
    Employment duration 6 yrs 10 mos
    Location Pretoria
    Design, development, test, evaluation and qualification of weapons systems and missiles.
    Aircraft integration and flight clearance.
    Missile production.

2. Eugene Van Jaarsveld currently working at Halcon Systems
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eugene-van-jaarsveld-748a7432/
Denel Dynamics

Total Duration 7 yrs 10 mos

• Title Technical Specialist
  Dates Employed Apr 2013 – Oct 2016
  Employment Duration 3 yrs 7 mos
  LabVIEW & TestStand Applications Specialist in Production Engineering - Test Equipment Division. Responsible for designing and developing test equipment software, hardware, tools and jigs using software like LabVIEW, Teststand and Solid Works.
  
  
• Title Chief Technician
  Dates Employed Jan 2009 – Mar 2013
  Employment Duration 4 yrs 3 mos
  LabVIEW Applications Specialist in Supply Chain - Test Equipment Division

3.Kobus Mouton working at Halcon Systems
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kobus-mouton-13a53250/
Denel Dynamics

Total Duration 18 yrs 11 mos

• Title Specialist Systems Engineer
  Dates Employed Feb 2009 – Mar 2009
  Employment Duration 2 mos
  Location Irene, Centurion
• Title Chief Systems Engineer
  Dates Employed Oct 1996 – Jan 2009
  Employment Duration 12 yrs 4 mos
  Location Irene, Centurion
  MUPSOW (MUlti-Purpose Stand-Off Weapon)
  AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) Aerodynamics & Flight Control
  RAPTOR Long-range, Precision-guided Weapon
  Stand-Off Weapons

4.Dawid Janse van Vuuren currently working at Halcon Systems developing opto-electronics

 

[cabatli_53]

Do you have a way to prove anything you just stated? I could say the exact same about Turkey, but without evidence I would be a fool.

A lot of Denel and other South African defense company's engineers have actually left South Africa for UAE which profiles I have found on LinkedIn. I can link many profiles if you want, they are taking defense experience with them and using it to develop weapon systems.


1. Reiner Roberts currently working at Halcon Systems
https://www.linkedin.com/in/reinier-robberts-42508647/
Company Name

• Denel Dynamics
  Total Duration 19 yrs 10 mos
  • Title Program Manager
    
  • Dates Employed Jan 1996 – Dec 2008
    Employment Duration13 yrs
    Location Pretoria
  • Title System Integration and T&E Manager
    Dates Employed Mar 1989 – Dec 1995
    Employment duration 6 yrs 10 mos
    Location Pretoria
    Design, development, test, evaluation and qualification of weapons systems and missiles.
    Aircraft integration and flight clearance.
    Missile production.

2. Eugene Van Jaarsveld currently working at Halcon Systems
https://www.linkedin.com/in/eugene-van-jaarsveld-748a7432/
Denel Dynamics

Total Duration 7 yrs 10 mos

• Title Technical Specialist
  Dates Employed Apr 2013 – Oct 2016
  Employment Duration 3 yrs 7 mos
  LabVIEW & TestStand Applications Specialist in Production Engineering - Test Equipment Division. Responsible for designing and developing test equipment software, hardware, tools and jigs using software like LabVIEW, Teststand and Solid Works.
  
  
• Title Chief Technician
  Dates Employed Jan 2009 – Mar 2013
  Employment Duration 4 yrs 3 mos
  LabVIEW Applications Specialist in Supply Chain - Test Equipment Division

3.Kobus Mouton working at Halcon Systems
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kobus-mouton-13a53250/
Denel Dynamics

Total Duration 18 yrs 11 mos

• Title Specialist Systems Engineer
  Dates Employed Feb 2009 – Mar 2009
  Employment Duration 2 mos
  Location Irene, Centurion
• Title Chief Systems Engineer
  Dates Employed Oct 1996 – Jan 2009
  Employment Duration 12 yrs 4 mos
  Location Irene, Centurion
  MUPSOW (MUlti-Purpose Stand-Off Weapon)
  AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) Aerodynamics & Flight Control
  RAPTOR Long-range, Precision-guided Weapon
  Stand-Off Weapons

4.Dawid Janse van Vuuren currently working at Halcon Systems developing opto-electronics

Transferring a few engineers from Denel doesn’t make you producer of many critical components that a few nation has expertise over them. A missile is a complex product which require the different expertise of various engineering fields so You should have a very matured sub-contractors to sustain development of strategic complete products. In this aspect, Turkey has been working on infrared detector technologies since 1999, Radar module technologies since 2000, optic and laser technologies since tens of years. First prototype of national processors called Çakil will be revealed in next year. Turkish electronic circuit boards got many awards at international competitions which is ranked ahead of Israeli and European manufacturers. In this aspect, What is your background effort to support such assertive claims ? The people who don’t know the meaning of R&D is giving lecture others about the technology. Wierd! It is you who should prove your claim.

 

[Saddam Hussein]

South Africa should behave itself

 

[Philip the Arab]

View attachment 591957

Transferring a few engineers from Denel doesn’t make you producer of many critical components that a few nation has expertise over them. A missile is a complex product which require the different expertise of various engineering fields so You should have a very matured sub-contractors to sustain development of strategic complete products. In this aspect, Turkey has been working on infrared detector technologies since 1999, Radar module technologies since 2000, optic and laser technologies since tens of years. First prototype of national processors called Çakil will be revealed in next year. Turkish electronic circuit boards got many awards at international competitions which is ranked ahead of Israeli and European manufacturers. In this aspect, What is your background effort to support such assertive claims ? The people who don’t know the meaning of R&D is giving lecture others about the technology. Wierd! It is you who should prove your claim.

Can you affirm the UAE haven't been doing the same? Face it, you can't prove me wrong, and I can't prove anything my self. Therefor we are both wrong.

 

[cabatli_53]

Can you affirm the UAE haven't been doing the same? Face it, you can't prove me wrong, and I can't prove anything my self. Therefor we are both wrong.

You can not reach big success in such a small time period. The engineering studies require non-stop working, tradition, qualified engineers and long time periods. To start your research journey, You can analise this image If you believe Gulf have infrared sensor/IR/IIR technologies. This image will help you to realise How many countries have capability to mamufacture infrared sensors.

 

[Philip the Arab]

What I want to tell is You can not reach big success in such a small time period. The engineering studies require non-stop working, tradition, qualified engineers and long time periods. To start your research journey, You can analise this image If you believe Gulf have infrared sensor/IR/IIR technologies. This image will help you to realise How many countries have capability to mamufacture infrared sensors.


View attachment 592015

I didn't say anything about IR, I said SALH tech which is quite easy to acquire in the 21st century.

Also, UAE owns a semiconductor foundry called GlobalFoundries in numerous countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries

 

[cabatli_53]

I didn't say anything about IR, I said SALH tech which is quite easy to acquire in the 21st century.

Also, UAE owns a semiconductor foundry called GlobalFoundries in numerous countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GlobalFoundries

If UAE produces any laser guidance elements in component level, You can be sure that they are supported with an experienced institute like Denel because Those things are not easy as you suppose. If UAE have really this capability, They will keep producing the kits even if Denel like institutes issue embargo. Look! Saudi Arabia asked Turkey (not their brothers- UAE) to share tech of LGK and Teber laser guided munitions in recent months. That means Western embargo started to hit their procurement plans. Anyway, Laser guided munitions are cheaper and they are widely used on operations but the important part is to develop a laser source which is able to guide the bombs/missiles precisely. When the relations got worse with West, They have issued a hidden embargo to Turkey in subcomponent level and Laser designator elements were one of the main issue which was not allowed for us and so Aselsan has quickly developed national laser source components for LHIC-Pod (AselPod) and Engerek. It took around 2-3 years to overcome the embargo the West applied for laser sources. This embargo caused to delay our national projects using their laser components but Today, They are all in production.

The result !