Prediction by Shaheed Lt. Gen Hamid Gul 5 years ago

[pakpride00090]

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Okay, okay. Good. That means if we can defeat USA we can easily defeat India and give kashmir freedom. Mmmmm but it 70 years now? What's 'sappening?

 

[Goenitz]

@Indus Pakistan
we lost 1857, then after 90 years we we got independence.... Aurengzed died 1707 but mughal empire took 140 years to collapse...

great person

 

[Indus Pakistan]

we lost 1857

Most of what is today Pakistan did little in 1857. Most of the fighting was done by Indians.

 

[pakpride00090]

Okay, okay. Good. That means if we can defeat USA we can easily defeat India and give kashmir freedom. Mmmmm but it 70 years now? What's 'sappening?

Kashmiri insurgency didn't reach its peak until 1993. Unlike Taliban , Kashmiris weren't as determined to use violence to achieve their objectives until now. Major reason why Kargil failed was because kashmiris weren't as ambitions as Taliban are in getting America out of Afghanistan.
The insurgency has just begun. Long and sustained efforts are needed to achieve the same result.

 

[Signalian]

Mutiny is not an ideal example.

 

[pakpride00090]

Most of what is today Pakistan did little in 1857. Most of the fighting was done by Indians.

Nah. Most of the resistance was conducted by muslims by and large and that is the reason why muslims paid a heavier price compared to non-muslims in the after math of 1857.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Kashmiri insurgency didn't reach its peak until 1993. Unlike Taliban , Kashmiris weren't as determined to use violence to achieve their objectives until now. Major reason why Kargil failed was because kashmiris weren't as ambitions as Taliban are in getting America out of Afghanistan.
The insurgency has just begun. Long and sustained efforts are needed to achieve the same result.

There you go. You answered the point I was trying to bring it. It was no so much the ISI that was critical in the defeat of Russians and now Americans. But the fighting spirit of the Afghans.

 

[pakpride00090]

Mutiny is not an ideal example.

What mutiny ? India was under occupation.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Mutiny is not an ideal example.

For a start 98% of coterminous Pakistan slept through it.

India was under occupation.

So was coterminous Pakistan before the British came. Rajit Singh? Hello?

 

[pakpride00090]

There you go. You answered the point I was trying to bring it. It was no so much the ISI that was critical in the defeat of Russians and now Americans. But the fighting spirit of the Afghans.

Incorrect . Ambition and fighting force is unfruitful if you don't get the required training , support , logistics , accommodation and etc. If ISI didn't help them , Taliban wouldn't have achieved their goals.

This fact is pretty evident as every single country in this world shouts at us for supporting Afghan Taliban. There is a reason why they do it.

For a start 98% of coterminous Pakistan slept through it.

So was coterminous Pakistan before the British came. Rajit Singh? Hello?

That fighting spirit and ambition got translated in achieving independence. Spirit is not limited to geographical boundaries.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Nah. Most of the resistance was conducted by muslims by and large and that is the reason why muslims paid a heavier price compared to non-muslims in the after math of 1857.

Most of the conquest of Europe was also done by Muslims. But I can't see the connection with Pakistan. Just because they might have been Muslim and I say might because as many if not more Hindu's were involved and if you disagree please give proof. It does not link with coterminous Pakistan as most of our ancestors slept through the whole affair. Stop claiming credit for others efforts.

Incorrect . Ambition and fighting force is unfruitful if you don't get the required training , support , logistics , accommodation and etc. If ISI didn't help them , Taliban wouldn't have achieved their goals

Well, if it's about support/logistics we go back to my starting point. Why is Kashmir still under Indian occupation?

 

[Signalian]

What mutiny ? India was under occupation.

For a start 98% of coterminous Pakistan slept through it.

When an example is given to raise morale of troops, its always something positive, which shows courage as well as sacrifice for a major cause. An example which achieved victory through sacrifice.

1857 example is not suitable, it shows that the troops were slaves, who let a foreign army command them, then somebody raised their conscience and they mutinied. Such an example gives thoughts of mutiny against commanders, mutiny against the system, mutiny against own institution. Its a very wrong example. Think from a soldier's point of view, not a historians.A historian, a Muslim or Pakistani, will call it war of independence, getting rid of British. But had the muslims never joined British Army (gun cartridge issue), instead fought for their independence from the start, then that would have been a war of independence. Maybe for the ones who didnt accept British system neither joined British Army, 1857 was a war of independence, but for those who took oath and joined British Military, this is mutiny.

By the way, punishment for mutiny is, death by Bullet, in Pakistan Army.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

In the Punjab, the Sikh princes crucially helped the British by providing both soldiers and support.[j][6][9] The large princely states, Hyderabad, Mysore, Travancore, and Kashmir, as well as the smaller ones of Rajputana, did not join the rebellion, serving the British, in the Governor-General Lord Canning's words, as "breakwaters in a storm."[14]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangal_Pandey

 

[pakpride00090]

When an example is given to raise morale of troops, its always something positive, which shows courage as well as sacrifice for a major cause. An example which achieved victory through sacrifice.

1857 example is not suitable, it shows that the troops were slaves, who let a foreign army command them, then somebody raised their conscience and they mutinied. Such an example gives thoughts of mutiny against commanders, mutiny against the system, mutiny against own institution. Its a very wrong example. Think from a soldier's point of view, not a historian.A historian, a Muslim or Pakistani, will call it war of independence, getting rid of British. But had the muslims never joined British Army (gun cartridge issue), instead fought for their independence from the start, then that would have been a war of independence. Maybe for the ones who didnt accept British system neither joined British Army, 1957 was a war of independence, but for those who took oath and joined British Military, this is mutiny.

By the way, punishment for mutiny is, death by Bullet, in Pakistan Army.

Good explanation.. +1
Legally you are right but I don't necessarily agree with that approach. Sometimes you are weaker to resist openly. Getting in the system and then resisting even becomes a choice when there is no other option.

We don't know what happened at that time and what made them so passionate to commit mutiny but I agree with your general premises.