PNS Shamsheer and PNS Nasr visit Qingdao, China

[Aamir Hussain]

Interesting info. Yes Leanders hull form was one of the most succesful design and was culmination of Whitby, Rothesay classes etc.

As far as the Type 21 is concerned, the seakeeping was an area of concern specially in North ans South Atlantic. However, the real reason for quick disposal was a combo of:

It was always a stop gap design. A commerical, off the shelf buy from Vosper Thornycraft instead of a purpose built design for RN. Some of shipboard systems destined for the new class were still under develpment that is why the first time in history of RN buy.

Aluminium Superstructure -- first used in this class. The firefighting drill and systems were inadequate for this type building material resulted in loss of couple of boats in the Falklands conflict.

Cracking of upper hull, amidships in line with the funnel and the deck.

The hull was strengthened with horizontal bracing and an enhnaced fire fighting system was intalled during refit prior to transfer to PN - a higher volume/head pumps for water/seawater and specialised chemicals retardant tanks were installed.

PN boats are required to patrol relatively much calmer waters than say south or north atlantic. Therefore, they are usefull units for their currnt operational areas and role.

you must admit they are handsome boats with sleek lines.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Interesting info. Yes Leanders hull form was one of the most succesful design and was culmination of Whitby, Rothesay classes etc.

As far as the Type 21 is concerned, the seakeeping was an area of concern specially in North ans South Atlantic. However, the real reason for quick disposal was a combo of:

It was always a stop gap design. A commerical, off the shelf buy from Vosper Thornycraft instead of a purpose built design for RN. Some of shipboard systems destined for the new class were still under develpment that is why the first time in history of RN buy.

Aluminium Superstructure -- first used in this class. The firefighting drill and systems were inadequate for this type building material resulted in loss of couple of boats in the Falklands conflict.

Cracking of upper hull, amidships in line with the funnel and the deck.
The hull was strengthened with horizontal bracing and an enhnaced fire fighting system was intalled during refit prior to transfer to PN - a higher volume/head pumps for water/seawater and specialised chemicals retardant tanks were installed.

PN boats are required to patrol relatively much calmer waters than say south or north atlantic. Therefore, they are usefull units for their currnt operational areas and role.

you must admit they are handsome boats with sleek lines.

Sure they are good looking, while the Leanders and their successors look like plodders.
There was another reason that IN rejected that design apart from hull form/cracks/and aluminum superstructures. The COGAG propulsion. At that time (the 70s) Gas Turbine propulsion was new to the IN through the Soviet Petya class. But they were CODAG. For reasons of economy and maintainability, IN was not willing to pitch all the propulsion eggs in the GT basket. While in the Leander and subsequent projects India was making Boilers, Steam Turbines and Gear-Boxes. So IN stuck with Steam Turbines and gave up on the Amazon "Porsches".

Though the IN returned to GT propulsion later.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thank you for the last line my friend.

IN had more resources and had always looked for longer term projects due to relatively deeper pockets. PN on the other hand had to contend with the smallest budget of the three serivce and short term plans andproject untill very recently.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Thank you for the last line my friend.

IN had more resources and had always looked for longer term projects due to relatively deeper pockets. PN on the other hand had to contend with the smallest budget of the three serivce and short term plans andproject untill very recently.

You don't have to thank me for anything. Its always a great pleasure to discuss matters with you (and daresay learn from you).

Well the IN did not always have deep pockets, rather its been a step-child of the Defence Sevices in India most of the time. Some things (many of them incidental or accidental) seem to have worked for IN.

First was the British love for their Navy (after all their Navy helped to create and perpetuate their Empire). After Independence (1947), the British hoped (and wanted) India to take over maintaining their strategic interests east of Suez. So through Mountbatten (who also happened to be a "salt" ) a big plan was made to create a really Naval Force. But that plan (including 1 Fleet carrier and 2 Light carriers!! in the 1960s) did not happen because of lack of resources in India, dwindling enthusiasm in Whitehall, London (because of Indian determination to pursue an idependent FP under the name of NAM) and so on. But the planners in the IN persevered and did not burn their plans, but kept updating them and returning them to "cold storage"
Then came 1962 which changed the whole priorities in Indian Defence preparedness. The MoD for some time even seemed to have forgotten at that time that they had a service called the IN! While the IN was the senior service till 26th January 1950!

After that the next watershed was 1965. In that conflict the IN was scarcely thought of and just had no place in the Indian War Plans. Till just after the war, when people woke up to the fact that the embargo imposed by the West and others at their behest could cripple India's war effort. BTW, Pakistan was hit similarly and far more severely for the same reasons.
In any case, that was a wake up call for the Indian Defence planners, so they again revived plans for the IN (Leanders, Soviet ships and all that.....) But resorces were always tight, luckily the IN had learnt to live with that so out of the three Indian forces; they became the most resorceful and increasingly thought out of the box. And the Soviets (most notably an Admiral Gorshkov) helped too to cover some gaps.

Now everybody in India (and outside) have woken up to the importance of SLOCs. So GoI has certainly loosened their purse strings. But that is recent, since the 1990s probably.

In case of Pakistan, all policy: Defence, Foreign, Trade and Economic(?) has some khaki imprint. So where do the whites come in?

 

[SQ8]

In case of Pakistan, all policy: Defence, Foreign, Trade and Economic(?) has some khaki imprint. So where do the whites come in?

Used to be a bastion of the "officer and a gentleman"..Long gone.. Loong gone.
The Whites are treated worse than the coast guard by the Khaki's.. as their belief in strategic depth had them forgetting the importance of their coastline.
Moreover, the concept of joint operations is still beyond most Khakis.. they still think that in the end all services must support them...and they shalt not be asked to give anything in return.
There was a move to upgrade the navy(actual upgrades both in doctrine and equipment) during Musharraf's tenure..but it all got lost somewhere along he earthquake and the NRO.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Used to be a bastion of the "officer and a gentleman"..Long gone.. Loong gone.
The Whites are treated worse than the coast guard by the Khaki's.. as their belief in strategic depth had them forgetting the importance of their coastline.
Moreover, the concept of joint operations is still beyond most Khakis.. they still think that in the end all services must support them...and they shalt not be asked to give anything in return.
There was a move to upgrade the navy(actual upgrades both in doctrine and equipment) during Musharraf's tenure..but it all got lost somewhere along he earthquake and the NRO.

That thought had crossed my mind, though I felt that it was better left unarticulated.

And the PN had in its origins, people like H.M.S Chaudhury and S.M. Ahsan.
H.M.S. was a subject of some jokes among his fellow midshipmen in the RIN because of his initials.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

`THE SHIPMENT` is being shipped

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Once again thank you for the insight on IN ;-)

More or less the same challenges with PN. Let us see when will we be able to get a handle on the importance of Sea Control.

 

[Donatello]

Used to be a bastion of the "officer and a gentleman"..Long gone.. Loong gone.
The Whites are treated worse than the coast guard by the Khaki's.. as their belief in strategic depth had them forgetting the importance of their coastline.
Moreover, the concept of joint operations is still beyond most Khakis.. they still think that in the end all services must support them...and they shalt not be asked to give anything in return.
There was a move to upgrade the navy(actual upgrades both in doctrine and equipment) during Musharraf's tenure..but it all got lost somewhere along he earthquake and the NRO.

Taxpayers must revolt against not only the current Political system but the Khakis.

What these idiots don't realize, is the importance of Naval and Air Power.

 

[Penguin]

Interesting info. Yes Leanders hull form was one of the most succesful design and was culmination of Whitby, Rothesay classes etc.

As far as the Type 21 is concerned, the seakeeping was an area of concern specially in North ans South Atlantic. However, the real reason for quick disposal was a combo of:

It was always a stop gap design. A commerical, off the shelf buy from Vosper Thornycraft instead of a purpose built design for RN. Some of shipboard systems destined for the new class were still under develpment that is why the first time in history of RN buy.

Aluminium Superstructure -- first used in this class. The firefighting drill and systems were inadequate for this type building material resulted in loss of couple of boats in the Falklands conflict.

Cracking of upper hull, amidships in line with the funnel and the deck.

The hull was strengthened with horizontal bracing and an enhnaced fire fighting system was intalled during refit prior to transfer to PN - a higher volume/head pumps for water/seawater and specialised chemicals retardant tanks were installed.

PN boats are required to patrol relatively much calmer waters than say south or north atlantic. Therefore, they are usefull units for their currnt operational areas and role.

you must admit they are handsome boats with sleek lines.

.

'Cousins' went to Iran (4x Mk 5 Saam class), Libya (1x Mk 7 Dat Assawari class) and Brazil (Mk 10 Niteroi class)