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Perfunctory predation or peacock performance?

Windjammer

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Nov 9, 2009
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After the Second World War, and until recent past, apart from America and some European Countries, the only major military aircraft manufacturer/suppler was Soviet Russia..... Specially during the Cold war period, the entire Warsaw Pact Block was totally reliant on Soviet equipment.
In the category of Russian Combat Aircraft designing and manufacture, MIG and Sukhoi have been the prime leaders. The market for Russian aircraft, which was initially lead by the MIG Design Bureau, seemingly has been superseded by the Sukhoi Team..... However looking back, a simple breakdown is conclusive that the Russian aircraft have a chequered history and never faired well against their Western counterparts.

1950s......Korean War...... MIG-15 V F-86 Sabre
1960s......Vietnam War.....MIG-17/19/21 V F-4/F-100/F-5
1967........Six Day War.....MIG-17/19/21 V Mirage-3
1971.......India/Pakistan....SU-7/MIG-21 V F-86
1973.......Yum Kippur.......MIG- 17/19/21 V F-4/Mirage/Mystere IV
1980s....War Of Attrition..... MIG-21/23 V F-15/F-16
1980s....Afghan/Pak conflict...MIG-21/23/SU-22/SU-25 V F-16
1990s....Dessert Storm, Serbian War, Dessert Storm-2 and several other clashes have all been decisive to give credibility to the Western aircrafts, however this is not to say, it's all been a one way traffic, there have been occasions where say the MIG-21s shot down Phantoms, Mirages or the F-104s and the Chinese derivative of MIG-19, the F-6 performed remarkably well against newer aircraft but no battle honours were ever achieved to the extent that was to portray any Russian plane as an outclass Fighter Aircraft..... Albeit, newer versions, from both the Russian manufacturers, such as SU-27/30 and MIG-35 look impressive in designs and displays but it's yet to be seen, whether they are the Predators or just performers.
 
It may also have to do with the training regimes imparted to Those Air forces that were the recipients of Soviet Equipment by the Russians.
Strict adherence to GCI.. and very little Independence in thinking led to these off balance factor in these engagement.
Also, whilst the Mig-15 was superior in terms of performance to the F-86 in many respects.. it was not as sophisticated in terms of electronics and pilot comfort or visibility.. nor did it have the American policy of "backup systems for backup systems".

During the Vietnam war, the Mig-21, Mig-17 and 19 all performed admirably against the US forces. To the extent that at one point the kill ratio was in favor of the Vietnamese.. this stemmed from the US belief in the superiority of their technology.. inflexible ROE's., and to a large extent, hit and run tactics used by the Viet AF. The only time the American counterparts took the edge was because of superior training.

During the 71 conflict.. IAF mig-21's performed very well.. both in A2A and A2G missions, much better than their Arab counter parts three years later.. why? training. Even the underpowered su-7 which was dubbed the "whale" by its test pilots was flown such that on many occasions it managed to outsmart the latest Mirage III interceptors. Again. Training.

During the Yom Kippur war , the kills by PAF pilots are well known.. why did they succeed instantly where their Arab counterparts had to struggle? Training.. Independence of thinking.

The war of attrition had Arab pilots outgunned and out-SA'ed. The IDFAF pilots had better Situation Awareness of their combat space compared to the Arab pilots, and better training. some Syrian pilots still managed to land a few kills via their longer ranged R-23's. But all in all. With their APG-63's and 66's. The IDFAF pilots had a much better picture of what was going on. That coupled with intense EW won the day for the Americans.

Come the Afghan Conflict. Each side was operating under strict guidelines. So it isnt a good idea of a matchup. Most PAF kills were on attack jets. The Time the PAF faced the Mig-23.. they would be under the grip of ROE's.

Desert Storm.. a well prepared, supremely executed plan, greater level of technology vs an in cohesive AF, even then.. the one or two Iraqi pilots that showed aggression and smart initiative managed to get kills. The rest weren't even interested in fighting. The less said the better about Operation Iraqi Liberation.

As one can see.. whilst the gap between technology and training/initiative/aggression has been getting smaller over the years.
A trained/experienced pilot in a relatively less advanced aircraft, vs a pilot in a much more advanced aircraft who is still a nugget has some chance of taking victory.

Now.
Coming to the Russian designs.
First, one must understand the philosophy of Russian Design. Contrary to most assumed beliefs.. almost all Russian jets are primarily defensive in nature.
They are designed to be operated from dispersed areas. heck even the Su-27 can take off from a normal countryside road. Which means they are rugged. Also, the Soviet idea of quantity over quality still had not died down till the 90's. So from that start.. Russian jets had to be rugged.. as well as throwaways. The idea of changing a fan blade on a compressor simply did not exist. you just threw the engine out and put in a new one.
Even today.. if a Russian engine loses a blade.. the engine is a definitive out, and most likely to explode and take the jet down with it.
Comparatively, a western engine.. like the PW-100 on the F-16.. can lose a fan.. have a large section of its internals damaged, but still have some chance of operating for a few minutes to allow the pilot to get out safely over friendly ground.

Second.. the Russians have been fans of brute force over sophistication. The Mig-25 is the best example of that; everything about that jet is power, from its tumansky engines.. to its massive radar.This philosophy has been carried on to the Su-27 as well. Although after a few spies from the west sent ideas back.. and the introduction of computers. The result was that the Su-27 in its original form was a very advanced aircraft. Yet for all its prowess, it was designed for a dumb GCI guided pilot. The voice alerts, the Monocle sight for the R-73.. and carefree handling.

Now.. come the late 90's and the customer's piling up for Russian stuff.. some smart guy realized that they need to introduce better man-machine interfaces. They started improving the interior of their jets, introduced more glass and less dials. Moreover, it was the commercialization of Russia that pushed the Russian aviation industry to reinvent its design structure.

Come today, Russian jets are every bit as good and effective as their western counterparts. and whilst reliability and user serviceability is still a nagging problem, it is going down. However, as much as anyone would disagree, training/aggression/intuition .. the hallmarks of a Fighterpilot still matter today.
In the hands of a novice.. a jet such as the Su-30MKI is a Dangerous foe...
In the hands of an experienced pilot .. it is LETHAL.. perhaps even Invincible.
 
I believe a little thought must be given to the Airshow performances of Russian AC.. and how that even applies to combat.

#1. In almost every display the Russain have put on in the west, the Aircraft's CG was altered from its normal towards the aft.. by keeping the front fuel tanks dry, this allows the jet to pull off the rapid nose change much loved by airshow goers. Contrary to all reports, from Russian enthusiasts. This pattern has not changed. However.. this has little or no effect on the roll performance of a jet. so when you see that Sukhoi roll like a top.. it really can do that in combat conditions too.

#2. Almost all Russian airshow performance is Clean.. no weapons, half fuel load etc. And therefore they can pull off those maneuvers.
Well, one thing to be understood is that the current two Russain AF performers.. i.e the Mig-29 and the Su-30 series the latter of which has a massive fuel load of >10000Kg.. that is 10 TONS of fuel.. some of it even in the rudders.
All of that fuel is what gives the Su-30 its massive range... but for an airshow where the aircraft is always within sight of an airfield... and even with full AB.. would not need more than 1/4th of its tank. It just seems practical not to fill it up... To help their cause, the Russians adapt point #1.
So whilst it is true that the Su-30 performing those pirouettes at the show is lighter than it would really be in Combat. It is a practical reason and not one that is done to boost its performance.
Come combat, with weapons and fuel.. even with half a tank.. the Su-30 series will be heavier and probably less agile(not by a large degree) than it can be in airshows. Which is where the TVC of the newer Su-30 series comes in.
Also the Al-31 series is a fairly powerful engine, only one of it can make a J-10 dance around the sky. So one can imagine what two of them would do on an airframe that is lighter than two J-10's when FULLY loaded.

Coming to the Mig-29.. the type has been possibly the most maneuverable aircraft (as the Mig-29OVT) available.. however, its comparative lack of sophistication and electronics vis a vis its bigger cousin has had it attain a terrible combat record. even losing to its cousin the Su-27 in the Ethiopia-Eritrea conflict along with being shot down by the F-15 and 16 over Iraq and Bosnia.

Part of this has to do with the jet itself, its not a comfortable aircraft to fly.. although the newer mig-35 improves on this a lot. Pilots will swear on its ability to turn on a dime, its power.. but never its interior. and in a conflict.. pilot comfort matters a lot.. the less work he has to do in a cockpit, the less strength he needs to move that stick.. and the more he knows about what is going on.. helps him make the right decision. Here.. the Mig falls short of expectations.
 
but today i think western counterparts are better like f16,f22,f35,gripen,Rafale,ef2000 they are better than mig 35,su30 yes su30 cuz you can't decide if su30 out performed in performance against ef2000,Rafale,f22 they all were competed in exercises GOD knows in reality who is better truth is today and future fighter jets superiority is to WEST . after mig29 poor real combat performance i don't think russian jets are good anymore although i salute to the mig21 designer it was hell of fighter of it's time.
 
but today i think western counterparts are better like f16,f22,f35,gripen,Rafale,ef2000 they are better than mig 35,su30 yes su30 cuz you can't decide if su30 out performed in performance against ef2000,Rafale,f22 they all were competed in exercises GOD knows in reality who is better truth is today and future fighter jets superiority is to WEST . after mig29 poor real combat performance i don't think russian jets are good anymore although i salute to the mig21 designer it was hell of fighter of it's time.

Double read what Santro said.

I always like to explain it this way.
Russians achieve in a very simple (some times crude) way, what the west achieves with a lot of sophistication (some times overly complex) way.

My Mercedes 500 has four wheels, a steering, engine etc ...
it's drive is unmatched by any other car, no other experience can come close.
But the same over engineered German production is also the cause of many complicated maintenance procedures.
 
Salman,

Why don't you compare the benz to the Zil---how about swapping it-----my man---you are seemingly over simplifying the technology.

By the way---I said the same thing about the benz 500 ride and drive---till I got to the Audi A8L quattro----that ride and drive and control under adverse conditions, takes the pleasue of driving to a pleateau where benz has never been-----once you own the quattro----you won't own a 2 wheel drive vehicle.
 
As far as Pakistan is concerned, we always had an edge in Pilot training. The basic instinct of a typical Pakistan pilot was enhanced by exposure to excellent training regimes provided by the USAF in mid 50s' on wards. This edge with better "Engineered" platforms have always yielded better results for PAF.

Both Indian and Pakistani pilots did their initial training in UK prior to late sixties. The edge in 65' for Pakistan was their familiarity with the Indian platforms and extensive (27 hours per month as compared to only 17 hours per month of Indian pilots) flying training.

Even after getting their common legacy structure and tactics,and initial training from UK the fact remains that 65' was won by PAF and they held their own in 71' due to:

1. Qualitative increase in the flying prowess of Pakistani Pilots with exposure to USAF training methods and tactics.
2. Putting in Higher flying hours
3. Familiarity with enemy platforms (The Indians did not have)
4. lesser number of different types of Aircraft (Basically two versus at least four)
5. Qualitative edge due to western weapon systems with PAF vs IAF.

My 2C
 
As far as Pakistan is concerned, we always had an edge in Pilot training. The basic instinct of a typical Pakistan pilot was enhanced by exposure to excellent training regimes provided by the USAF in mid 50s' on wards. This edge with better "Engineered" platforms have always yielded better results for PAF.

Both Indian and Pakistani pilots did their initial training in UK prior to late sixties. The edge in 65' for Pakistan was their familiarity with the Indian platforms and extensive (27 hours per month as compared to only 17 hours per month of Indian pilots) flying training.

Even after getting their common legacy structure and tactics,and initial training from UK the fact remains that 65' was won by PAF and they held their own in 71' due to:

1. Qualitative increase in the flying prowess of Pakistani Pilots with exposure to USAF training methods and tactics.
2. Putting in Higher flying hours
3. Familiarity with enemy platforms (The Indians did not have)
4. lesser number of different types of Aircraft (Basically two versus at least four)
5. Qualitative edge due to western weapon systems with PAF vs IAF.

My 2C

We may enjoy that with only one platform in the future.
 
And while in a dog fight----remembering to fight from their position of strength rather than the enemy's----where that happened---paf got the upper hand----when that changed----paf lost the aircraft----
 

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