Pakistan's Submarine Procurement

[unicorn148]

Firstly the INS Vindhyagiri was a ship about to be decommissioned.Recently a pakistan frigate also collided so its common in every country so dont worry so much
and about the deal its not yet signed and still on board and buying 6 AIP Subs will be costly for Pakistan because 6 subs may cost a min of 5 billion $ and this is the time when PN is planning to buy more frigates and FAC so will take a bit more time than predicted. Pakistan should not prefer a soft loan because it already bought F-22p on soft loan so it will become more burden on PN

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Thank you for admitting YOUR media is unreliable.

You can howl and scream all you want, but the below footage says irrespective of what toys you get, you will never be a threat to anyone, forget Pakistan!

You just have to talk to the Pakistani Navy veterans of 1971 to really understand your grand statement. I'm pretty sure they remember.
But just to update you:

Date Ship Weapon Victim Victim type Status
3 Dec,1971 INS Rajput Depth charges PNS Ghazi Submarine Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nirghat Styx ASM PNS Khaibar Destroyer Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM PNS Shahjahan Destroyer Sunk*
4 Dec,1971 INS Veer Styx ASM PNS Muhafiz Minesweeper Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM Venus challenger Merchant*** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Talwar 4.5 " + 40mm Patrol craft** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM Harmattan Merchant Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM SS Gulfstar Freighter Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM PNS Dacca Tanker Damaged
8 Dec,1971 INS Brahmaputra 4.5 " 4x Patrol Craft Sunk¹

That summarises the PN losses.
You can correct your impressions.

 

[SyedF]

Apna hosh nahi hai, hamari fikr karnay chalae hain

The Curse Continues

December 29, 2010:

Four months ago, India was to have finally received the Russian Akula II SSN (nuclear attack submarine) Nerpa it has leased for ten years. But then there arose a problem. The Indian crew, after more than a year of training, found that they were not fully prepared to take over the sub. The crew won't be ready for another six months. The Russians are being blamed, partly because they were in charge of the training, and partly because they recently made a lot of internal changes to the Nerpa. But Indians also admit that all their veteran nuclear submarine sailors (who manned a Russian nuclear sub leased in 1988-91) were retired, and the difficulties of learning how to run a nuclear boat were underestimated.

The Nerpa was built for this Indian deal, and finally completed its sea trials and was accepted into Russian service last December. India was supposed to take possession last May, but there were more delays. The Indian crew for the sub has been ready for nearly two years. Most of the delay stems from an event two years ago, when, while Nerpa was undergoing sea trials, there was an accidental activation of the fire extinguisher system. This killed twenty sailors and civilians, and injured more than twenty. There were 208 people aboard the sub at the time, most of them navy and shipyard personnel there to closely monitor all aspects of the sub as it made its first dives and other maneuvers. The source of the fatal accident was poor design and construction of the safety systems. This accident led to sailors and shipyard technicians being fearful of going to sea on the boat. So the sea trials were delayed, even after repairs were made.

The Nerpa has been renamed the INS Chakra (the same name used by the Charlie class Russian sub India leased from 1988-91). The post-accident modifications on the Nerpa cost $65 million. The lease arrangement has India paying $178,000 a day, for ten years, for use of the sub. The 7,000 ton Akula II requires a crew of 73 highly trained sailors. Over a hundred Indian sailors have undergone training to run the boat.

It was Indian money that enabled Russia to complete construction on at least two Akulas. These boats were less than half finished at the end of the Cold War. This was another aftereffect of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Several major shipbuilding projects were basically put on hold (which still cost a lot of money), in the hopes that something would turn up. In this case, it was Indians with lots of cash.

Traditionally, when a new ship loses lots of people during sea trials, it is regarded as "cursed" and unlucky. Sailors can be a superstitious, especially when there are dead bodies involved. It's not known if India will have any problems with this.

India has designed and built its own nuclear sub, but the first one is basically a development craft, and mass production of Indian designed nuclear subs is still 5-10 years away. The unlucky Russian sub will enable India to train more nuclear sub sailors in the meantime.

Submarines: The Curse Continues

 

[SyedF]

You just have to talk to the Pakistani Navy veterans of 1971 to really understand your grand statement. I'm pretty sure they remember.
But just to update you:

Date Ship Weapon Victim Victim type Status
3 Dec,1971 INS Rajput Depth charges PNS Ghazi Submarine Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nirghat Styx ASM PNS Khaibar Destroyer Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM PNS Shahjahan Destroyer Sunk*
4 Dec,1971 INS Veer Styx ASM PNS Muhafiz Minesweeper Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM Venus challenger Merchant*** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Talwar 4.5 " + 40mm Patrol craft** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM Harmattan Merchant Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM SS Gulfstar Freighter Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM PNS Dacca Tanker Damaged
8 Dec,1971 INS Brahmaputra 4.5 " 4x Patrol Craft Sunk¹

That summarises the PN losses.
You can correct your impressions.

You know copy and pasting is never a good idea! Half the vessels you refer to were unarmed! The remaining ones were true loses just like your INSKhukri.

8 Dec 1971 INS Khukri frigate SUNK by PNS Hangor

Secondly, keep gloating about 1971, being overconfident always helps!! Read the article below and tell me why you are behind in inducting your subs??

If you think you will ever play catch up with Pakistan or be a role player in the Arabian sea, then that's nothing more than a dream. In reality you guys cant even parallel berth without hitting each other:
Submarines collide, lucky escape for sailors - The Times of India

So all this talk of 1971, save it!!! Just you guys being on this forum trolling tells me how much confidence you have in your Armed forces!

Indian Navy's submarine fleet in poor health: CAG
Indian Navy's submarine fleet in poor health: CAG - India News - IBNLive

Induction of Scorpene submarines delayed by three years
Press Trust Of India
New Delhi, February 23, 2011

The first of the six Scorpene submarines would now be inducted into the Navy by 2015 against the planned induction in December next year, the Defence Ministry said on Wednesday. Defence Minister A K Antony said the Government has also granted sanction for cost revision of the Project-75 contract signed with French company DCNS in 2004 under which the first submarine was scheduled to be delivered in 2012 and was to be followed up by delivery one vessel each year up to 2017.

"The first submarine is scheduled to be delivered in the second half of 2015. There has been a delay due to initial teething problems and absorption of technology," the Minister said in a written reply in Rajya Sabha.

The submarines are being built by the Mumbai-based Mazagon Dockyards Limited (MDL) in partnership with DCNS.

The Minister said that the cost revision was sanctioned keeping in mind the increase in cost of MPM items, related subheads and additional MDL infrastructure.

Antony said the Navy was bridging any submarine capacity gap through upgrades on the existing fleet of Russian and German-origin under water fleet.

He added that the government was also working on the proposal to construct six additional submarines for the Navy under Project-75 (India).

Induction of Scorpene submarines delayed by three years - Hindustan Times

 

[SyedF]

You just have to talk to the Pakistani Navy veterans of 1971 to really understand your grand statement. I'm pretty sure they remember.
But just to update you:

Date Ship Weapon Victim Victim type Status
3 Dec,1971 INS Rajput Depth charges PNS Ghazi Submarine Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nirghat Styx ASM PNS Khaibar Destroyer Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM PNS Shahjahan Destroyer Sunk*
4 Dec,1971 INS Veer Styx ASM PNS Muhafiz Minesweeper Sunk
4 Dec,1971 INS Nipat Styx ASM Venus challenger Merchant*** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Talwar 4.5 " + 40mm Patrol craft** Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM Harmattan Merchant Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM SS Gulfstar Freighter Sunk
8 Dec,1971 INS Vinash Styx ASM PNS Dacca Tanker Damaged
8 Dec,1971 INS Brahmaputra 4.5 " 4x Patrol Craft Sunk¹

That summarises the PN losses.
You can correct your impressions.

Here's something to cheer you up: Only 7 subs operational out of 14!! must be some kind of record!! Now this is something you can be really proud of!!

Navy’s submarine rescue plan leaks: CAG
August 21, 2010
By Saurabh Joshi

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) of India has criticized the implementation of the Indian Navy’s plan for enabling its submarines with facilities to couple with Deep Submergence Rescue Vessels (DSRV) and Submarine Rescue Chamber (SRC) of the United States Navy (USN), which has resulted in an expenditure of USD 744,343.

The CAG said in its report that not only were many of the 16 Indian submarines at the end of three-fourths of their life, but that only seven of them were actually operational, with nine undergoing repairs and refit. Two of the submarines, INS (Indian Naval Ship) Vela and INS Vagli, both Foxtrot-class, are due to be decommissioned this year and next year. (Both retired)

The report reads, “75 per cent submarines in the IN fleet have already completed three fourths of their estimated operational life. In fact the IN envisaged the project without clearly identifying deadlines for completing the project. It is pertinent to mention that only 7 out of 16 submarines in IN are operational and 9 submarines are under refit/repair as of October 2009. As of November 2009, Padeyes fitment has been completed in 11 out of 16 submarines out of which only 4 SSK (Diesel Electric Attack) submarines have been certified by USN for mating with US DSRV for a period of three years effective from 20 December 2007 and of whichat least 2 are presently under refit. Two of the serving Foxtrot submarines, on which Padeyes were fitted, INS Vela and INS Vagli, would be de-commissioned in 2010 and 2011 respectively” (already retired)

The CAG report has also pointed out that any actual submarine rescue would depend on the presence of a USN DSRV, which would take at least 72 hours to get to station from its nearest base, and for the services of which, an agreement was not even in place. “The DSRV is to perform rescue operations on submerged or disabled submarines. It will remain stationed with the US Navy and in the event of an accident will be transported to the nearest seaport or airport, then to a mother ship to reach the rescue site. The nominal response time is 72 hours from the time the DSRV is lifted from its location to reach the rescue site and with the capability of rescuing up to a depth of 610 meters. Such time and depth restrictions further dilutes the effectiveness of a rescue facility which in any case is nowhere close to completion,” says the report.

The Ministry of Defense attributed the delays to ‘imposition of sanctions, amendment of LOA (Letter of Offer and Acceptance) in view of change in the scope of work, interpretation of contract differently by USN and other aspects concerning technology and operational incompatibility issues between IN and USN’.

The project is yet to be fully operationalized in spite of having been envisaged in 1997. “While the initial work of fitting of Padeyes and certification of IN submarines for mating with USN, DSRV was no where close to completion, a separate agreement with USN to enable DSRV to undertake rescue operations and further recertification of submarines is yet to be concluded,” says the report.

Navy's submarine rescue plan leaks: CAG | StratPost

 

[Ammyy]

It is pertinent to mention that only 7 out of 16 submarines in IN are operational and 9 submarines are under refit/repair as of October 2009.

Yar or purani report nahi mili ?????

Its march 2011 not Oct 2009

 

[SyedF]

With friends like these who needs the ISI ???

Indian Navy chief caught in Russian 'honeytrap'
An Indian Navy chief caught in a Russian "honeytrap" may have helped inflate the cost of an aircraft carrier deal by up to £1 billion to stop explicit photographs taken during the negotiations being released.


Dean Nelson in New Delhi 6:04PM BST 22 Apr 2010

Commodore Sukhjunder Singh (equivalent of US 1 star General) has been under investigation by a military Board of Inquiry since a CD containing the images of him in bed with a blonde Russian woman were sent to New Delhi's Naval Headquarters last month.

It is understood there is, as yet, no evidence that the 'honeytrap' influenced Commodore Singh's behaviour in negotiations to buy the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier from Russia, but investigators have not ruled out the possibility.

Investigators believe the photographs were taken between 2005 and 2007 when he was a captain posted as an observer to Severodvinsk base on the country's North-West coast.

At that time he was head of a large technical delegation sent to oversee repairs and the refitting of the vessel in the run-up to it being commissioned as the INS Vikramaditya. Then, India had agreed to buy the Soviet-era carrier, launched in 1982, for $800 million, including a full refit. But costs quickly began to rise and eventually led to a diplomatic dispute between India and Russia.

Now the costs have reached an estimated $2.33 (£1.5 billion), almost £1 billion higher than originally agreed and military chiefs fear Commodore Singh's honey trap may have been part of a campaign to influence Indian Navy specialists assessing the repairs and upgrades.

Russia's intelligence agencies and criminal gangs are suspected of being behind a series of honeytrap stings in which senior diplomats have been filmed in compromising situations with Russian women.

Last year Britain's deputy consul-general in Ekaterinberg, James Hudson, after footage of him in bed with two women was posted on the internet under the title 'The Adventures of Mr Hudson in Russia.' He was exposed a few months after American diplomat Kyle Hatcher was caught in a similar honeytrap in Moscow. Both cases were believed to have been part of blackmail attempts by Russian intelligence agencies.

While both Mssrs Hudson and Hatcher were caught by hidden cameras, Commodore Singh, who is married, appears to have willingly been photographed. In one shot both he and his partner smile directly into the camera. This fact has persuaded some investigators that he may be guilty only of "bad judgement." Commodore Singh is understood to have denied suggestions that his "indiscretion" had had any impact on the price increase negotiations with the Russians.

Sources close to India's defence establishment however believe he is now facing dismissal from his Navy post for "immoral conduct unbecoming of an officer." The newly refitted INS Vikramaditya is expected to be formally commissioned into the Indian Navy in 2012.

Indian Navy chief caught in Russian 'honeytrap' - Telegraph

 

[SyedF]

Yar or purani report nahi mili ?????

Its march 2011 not Oct 2009

What can I say about a navy that can ground half its fleet?

Btw enlighten us, how many are operational as of today?

 

[Stealth_fighter]

guys the topic is pakistan's submarine procurement....not indian procurement

 

[SyedF]

guys the topic is pakistan's submarine procurement....not indian procurement

Right!! Read Post 583 and the indian delusions that deviated this thread will become crystal clear!

As to the chinese subs being bought by PN heres something from :

Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China

By Farhan Bokhari

11 June 2010

China's vice-president, Zheng Dejiang, met with civil and military leaders in Pakistan on 9-10 June in a visit surrounded by reports of a major new defence deal under discussion that would see Pakistan buying at least three Chinese submarines.

Speaking to on 9 June, a senior Pakistani government official said the Pakistan Navy began discussions with "the Chinese authorities last month for an eventual submarine deal" for up to three or four boats, but declined to specify the types or terms under discussion.

China has a long history of helping Pakistan overcome shortages of key military hardware, notably the hardware it was denied by the Western world following sanctions imposed from 1990 in response to Pakistan's nuclear weapons programme.

The Pakistani government official who spoke to on 9 June said that it was vital for the navy to acquire more submarines to offset "the pressure we will definitely come under" due to the rapid expansion of India's naval capability. "Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance once again," he said.

Although neither China nor Pakistan have ever publicly revealed the terms of their past financial arrangements, defence analysts say that China continues to offer long-term loans to Pakistan on concessional terms, allowing the country to continue with its military hardware purchases.
222 of 462 words
Copyright © IHS (Global) Limited, 2010
http://www..com/news/defence//jdw100611_1_n.shtml

On another note, there are advanced negotiations going on about leasing an SSBN or two, but I wont go into that today!

 

[Indus Falcon]

On another note, there are advanced negotiations going on about leasing an SSBN or two, but I wont go into that today!

I have heard something about the SSBN's too when I was in Beijing last month. Could you please give us some details? Thanks !!

 

[muse]

Perhaps the way forward for the Pakistan Navy is to take lesson for the PAF and to use their funding to set facilities to study and manufacture submarine systems -- As a non-Western aspiring power, Pakistan can have no place with the security arrangement of the Western powers and therefore what is required a structural shift with the Pakistan Navy, indeed in the entire Pakistani security apparatus.

Will realtions between Pakistan and the Western powers never improve? One certainly hopes relations do improve, however, in the meantime and as a condition for the improvement and maintenance of good relations between Pakistan and the West, Pakistan must institutionalize submarine expertize witht he assistance of the brother ally, China.

 

[SQ8]

But then.. a Sub is a far more difficult endeavor than Missile craft or patrol boats..
Just the metallurgy of it.. is a marathon run in itself..
On the lopside.. we already possess the capability to create our own Sonars, Sub management... or if I may use the term.. something better than SUBTICS.

Unlike the JF where we could build the jet in the 90's and not the electronics.. here we have all the expertise for the gizmo's.. but none whatsoever for the platform itself.

 

[muse]

Yes, actually it does not matter how difficult the effort may be -- first, it has to be done or else we might as well deliver our defence to those who are hostile to us and will be for another couple of decades at least, and secondly, the effort becomes less difficult the sooner one begins.

Such an effort will give majorities of Pakistan hope that those to whom they have entrusted the defence of the nation and the state are actually worthy of that trust and it will create a map of sorts for the kinds of capabilities the Navy should pursue -- after all the defence of Pakistan, on the seas, under the seas, on land, in the air and in space, must be the responsibility of Pakistanis not enterprises in the West

 

[Imran Khan]

what the hell is this thread become warzone and santro is here but never clean?