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Pakistan's Nuclear Submarine Development | News and Discussions

but they can function for basically the life of the reactor without refuelling.

Hi dear @Quwa
I wish to add couple of points to this article.First off i will start by writing how refuelling interval is directly contingent upon the enrichment level of the core and quantum of power drawn from it.The former is perhaps the most important parameter defining the refuelling interval in any nuclear vessel.The more enriched a core is,longer can it go without refuelling .Now coming back to indian context,it is sheer exaggeration to assume that india will have her first nuclear boat with enrichment level of 90%+.By a lot of conservative estimates- and remarks made by ex admirals etc arihant has enrichment levels of 30-40%- which can only power the vessel for 8-10 years without refuelling.Compare this figure with chinese first attempt-i.e their xia class that had an enrichment level in the vicinity of 10%.
Now,india needs highly enriched uranium in large quantities to fuel her growing nuclear vessels- atleast 4 arihants and 6SSNs that are planned.If you look at india's indigenous energy reactors- they are all heavy water reactors requiring either LEU or moderately enriched uranium(I am not talking about more recent breeder or light water reactors).However the nuclear subs are all powered by pressurized light water reactors and since the dimensions have to be small,there is no other way but to increase enrichment level of the core.That is the reason why indian govt is furiously constructing that enrichment site at chalkerre in karnataka- it was mainly intended to cater to growing nuclear fleet of indian navy.

Can one seriously suggest that SSNs and SSBNs will be of immense added benefit over air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped submarines along the Arabian Sea and western Indian Ocean?

Secondly in shallow waters of arabian sea,a conventional submarine with AIP is far more cost effective than a nuclear sub.These shallow waters take away most of the advantage rendered by a nuke sub and hence a cheap conventional sub with AIP is far more cost effective.That is the reason why IN has decided to go for another 6 conventional subs over and above 6 scorphenes.
Nuclear sub is more useful in deep waters of bay of bengal or indian ocean.So in all likelyhood,IN will never risk putting their boomers in arabian sea- in my opinion- based on attending a lot of seminars- Indian boomers will be mainly deployed in bay of bengal or indian ocean and yet it'll be able to target pakistan or china with her K4 and K5(under development).

And Indian one costed about $2.9 Billion.

$2.9bn was the entire R&D cost of the ATV program that resulted in arihant.
 
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Hi dear @Quwa
I wish to add couple of points to this article.First off i will start by writing how refuelling interval is directly contingent up the enrichment level of the core and quantum of power drawn from it.The former is perhaps the most important parameter defining the refuelling interval in any nuclear vessel.The more enriched a core is,longer can it go without refuelling .Now coming back to indian context,it is sheer exaggeration to assume that india will have her first nuclear boat with enrichment level of 90%+.By a lot of conservative estimates- and remarks made by ex admirals etc arihant has enrichment levels of 30-40%- which can only power the vessel for 8-10 years without refuelling.Compare this figure with chinese first attempt-i.e their xia class that had an enrichment level in the vicinity of 10%.
Now,india needs highly enriched uranium in large quantities to fuel her growing nuclear vessels- atleast 4 arihants and 6SSNs that are planned.If you look at india's indigenous energy reactors- they are all heavy water reactors requiring either LEU or moderately enriched uranium(I am not talking about more recent breeder or light water reactors).However the nuclear subs are all powered by pressurized light water reactors and since the dimensions have to be small,there is no other way but to increase enrichment level of the core.That is the reason why indian govt is furiously constructing that enrichment site at chalkerre in karnataka- it was mainly intended to cater to growing nuclear fleet of indian navy.



Secondly in shallow waters of arabian sea,a conventional submarine with AIP is far more cost effective than a nuclear sub.These shallow waters take away most of the advantage rendered by a nuke sub and hence a cheap conventional sub with AIP is far more cost effective.That is the reason why IN has decided to go for another 6 conventional subs over and above 6 scorphenes.
Nuclear sub is more useful in deep waters of bay of bengal or indian ocean.So in all likelyhood,IN will never risk putting their boomers in arabian sea- in my opinion- based on attending a lot of seminars- Indian boomers will be mainly deployed in bay of bengal or indian ocean and yet it'll be able to target pakistan or china with her K4 and K5(under development).



$2.9bn was the entire R&D cost of the ATV program that resulted in arihant.
By the way does the reactor always keep producing electricity when docked say 5% of its capacity or can it be started & stopped as when required.
Would there be any nuke engineers on board to that or is it responsibility of navy itself.
 
so we cant lease one N-sub ? like India did ?

Who from"? > Russia or China?
What boat? India leased an SSN, not an SSBN.
Which boat? What boats could be available

China operates too few to be able to lease out any new(er) boats without diminishing its own base force. Eventually older boats will decommission (3 Type 091 Han SSN, 1 Type 092 Xia SSBN) but does PN really want any of these because a) they are old and b) they are much nosier than any of the newer boats.

As for Russia, it strugles to maintain and modernize its submarine force and, given it has leased 1 boat to India and general strength of arms trade relations with India, I don't see it catering to Pakisten.
  • Dolgorukiy class SSBN submarine (new)(1)
  • Delta IV class SSBN submarine (Soviet era) (6)
  • Typhoon class SSBN submarine (Soviet era) (1)
  • Oscar class SSN submarine (Soviet era) (3)
  • Severodvinsk class SSGN submarine (new)(1)
  • Akula class SSN submarine (Soviet era) (6)
  • Sierra class SSN submarine (Soviet era) (3)
  • Victor class SSN submarine (Soviet era) (4)
 
It looks Pakistan will opt to produce nuclear submarine by itself with some Chinese assistance.
 

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PN-Agosta-90B-08-692x360.png


A Pakistan Navy Agosta 90B air-independent propulsion (AIP) equipped submarine
Country PortfolioPakistan
PART 1: WILL PAKISTAN NOW SEEK NUCLEAR SUBMARINES?









The Indian Navy (IN) is at the cusp of finally inducting its first domestically designed and build nuclear powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) – the INS Arihant. Powered by an 83 MW pressurized light-weight nuclear reactor, the Arihant-class SSBN will form the nucleus of India’s sea-based deterrence. In turn, it will provide India with assured second-strike capability – which could occur through the Arihant’s capacity to launch nuclear-tipped cruise and ballistic missiles (such as the 3500km range DRDO K-4). Four additional Arihant-class SSBNs will join the Indian Navy in the coming years.

Granted, it will still be some time before the Indian Navy fully harmonizes its personnel, infrastructure, doctrine and planning with its emerging SSBN fleet, but it is clear that it is merely a matter of “when” and not “if.” In comparison to the Indian Army and the Indian Air Force, the Indian Navy has traditionally made and in fact continues to make very impressive strides in all areas of its development – surface combatants, aircraft, power-projection assets, and submarines (nuclear and conventional alike).

All things considered, the most concerning threat to China and even Pakistan to an extent would be the Indian Navy. For China, the Indian Navy’s progress in building a capable blue water fleet and New Delhi’s ties with the U.S. anchor it as a real player in the Pacific Ocean (in opposition to China). For Pakistan, the Indian Navy readily has the means to fully interdict Pakistan’s sea-lines-of-communications (SLOC) – i.e. its maritime trade routes (which connect to leading trading partners, such as Gulf). In turn, this enables the Indian Navy to directly threaten Pakistan’s coastal economy. Karachi constitutes a fifth of Pakistan’s total economic output, while Gwadar is a critical component of China’s massive economic investment plans (i.e. the China Pakistan Economic Corridor or CPEC).

While the urgently critical need to modernize and strengthen the Pakistan Navy has been discussed on Quwa before, the issue of India’s SSBN fleet is a somewhat different matter. Yes, the primary respondent to any nearby SSBNs will be the Pakistan Navy, which will require continued development of its anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities (in the form of new ASW frigates and aircraft). However, India’s SSBNs also fall under the question of strategic parity, which has been a central pillar of Pakistan’s defence strategy since the 1970s when it formally initiated its nuclear weapons program.

Pakistan’s pursuit of nuclear weapons was in response to India’s nuclear ambitions, and a matter of strategic parity is rarely ever put on the backburner in Pakistan – irrespective of economic or political constraints. This does not mean ‘all bets are on the table,’ rather, those systems deemed necessary for maintaining strategic parity with India could be pursued, while those that are not, such as intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM), are left alone. Thus, the question for us is, “are SSBN and SSN (short for ‘nuclear-powered attack submarine’) necessary for maintaining strategic parity with India?”

To answer this question, it is important that we have a workable understanding of what SSNs and SSBNs actually are and why they are acquired. At this point, one might understand that nuclear submarines are powered by nuclear reactors. Not only do these nuclear reactors provide an immense amount of energy (thus enabling submarines to travel relatively fast when submerged), but they can function for basically the life of the reactor without refuelling. This is a huge strategic advantage as SSNs and SSBNs out at sea do not need substantial support from their fleets, besides perhaps fresh supplies for the submariners, such as food, for example. These submarines could go farther and faster, stay at sea and undersea longer, and – especially in the case of SSBN – carry more in terms of weapons.

It is for these reasons that SSNs and SSBNs are in fact the mainstay submarines of blue water navies, i.e. naval forces that have to traverse the Atlantic and/or Pacific Oceans in order to maintain their countries’ geo-strategic interests. The U.S., Britain, France and Russia (more so during the Soviet Union) are the world’s prime SSN and SSBN users, with China and India entering the mix in recent years. At heart, SSNs and SSBNs are not defensive systems designed for area denial or even regional warfare, they are meant for fleet-on-fleet battles in the open seas and for inducing pressure on distant enemies. China has sought SSNs and SSBNs as a means to induce pressure on the U.S. naval presence in the Pacific, and India has viewed China’s advancements as threats to its geo-strategic security.

In fact, one could argue that it would be disadvantageous to use SSN and SSBN within a focused – and in Pakistan and India’s case, territorially adjoined – conflict scenario. The naval theatre on Pakistan’s end is not as vast as the Pacific Ocean, so the room its own SSN or SSBN would have is going to be much smaller. Knowing that neither India nor Pakistan are going to muster exceptionally quiet SSNs and SSBNs, it would be reasonable to conclude that these highly valued gems would be particularly vulnerable against each side’s ASW assets. India has an impressive ASW force, but Pakistan’s ASW capabilities are not to be scoffed at either. Can one seriously suggest that SSNs and SSBNs will be of immense added benefit over air-independent propulsion (AIP)-equipped submarines along the Arabian Sea and western Indian Ocean?

From the context of submarine warfare, SSNs and SSBNs are not a significant issue for either side. The real problem actually comes from the deterrence value of these submarines. Pakistan’s ballistic missile arsenal is very explicitly pointed at India. Even its longest range ballistic missile – the Shaheen III – is designed to keep the entirety of India within the range of Pakistan’s nuclear strike capabilities. But this capability is land-based, Pakistan’s strategic capabilities in the air and sea (today and in the future) are much shorter in range. This is because the nuclear strike capability of the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Navy are centered on cruise missiles: The Ra’ad is at 350km and the Babur is at 700km.

In effect, Pakistan could view its second-strike capability as incomplete, and thus, not assured. If its AIP submarines or fighter aircraft cannot hit India’s most eastward targets like the Shaheen III, then it means India’s strategic capabilities (especially with its SSBN in the picture) are basically unthreatened. Whether this is how Pakistan is looking at the situation or not is another story, this is simply a point-of-view.

Hence, while there is no inherent naval warfare need for an SSBN, Pakistan could have an overarching strategic need for an SSBN. Of course, the availability of longer range air and sub-surface launched munitions would rectify the range issue. Hence, this is not a simple topic wit one clear answer. We will take a deep (no pun intended) look at this question in part-two.
Pakistan don't need it, keeping in India in mind, diesel electric is good enough. Nuke Sub only good for blue water.
 
Currently we don't really need a Nuclear submarine neither funding is available. The 8 Subs with AIP and nuclear tipped Babur cruise missiles would be a sufficient platform. Nonetheless we need to start working on our indigenous Nuclear Submarine, we can always lease one from China and start absorbing the technology. Economy is improving after some time we should be able to have a nuclear submarine.

For the time being ? Not really needed. For the Future ? Certainly a Yes
 
Nuclear Submarines are advantageous due to their endurance but hold no overwhelming or great advantage in any other sphere. The most deadly subs to kill other subs and harass enemy flotillas are infact AIP Diesel electrics.
 
Soon mini precision strike weapons will take these giants size , over priced weapons. A mini stealth sub with nuclear arsenal can do more damage then nuclear sub. Agility and precision strike.
 
Soon mini precision strike weapons will take these giants size , over priced weapons. A mini stealth sub with nuclear arsenal can do more damage then nuclear sub. Agility and precision strike.

Agreed.
Let me know when some one has developed that kind of technology.

Coming back topic, the bigger question is, even if Pakistan is willing to buy, who would be willing to sell them? China probably?
 
A mini stealth sub with nuclear arsenal can do more damage then nuclear sub. Agility and precision strike.

No, and the mimi-sub would be less survivable.

Exhibit 1: Ohio class SSGN (assuming the TLAM-A was still in service).

154 tomahawk missiles, each with a range of 2,500 Km.
ohio-class-guided-missile-submarine-009.jpg


Quiet and deep-diving, she's out of range of counterattack before her missiles even make land-fall.

Exhibit 2: Sang-O class mimi-sub.

Armed with two torpedo tubes and external mine racks, she carries a limited number of weapons.
1280px-Gangneung_sub_8990.jpg


She's slow, confined to shallow waters and lacks endurance making her return to port predictablely dangerous. A enemy could lie in wait, awaiting her return from sea and ambush her will taking supplies.

Big nuke boats like LA.
uss_santa_fe_sub.jpg


Or Virginia.
150803125646-u-s-navys-submarine-fleet-1-super-169.jpg


Carry long-ranged missiles, dive deep at speed and have the endurance to slip away and cover vast distances without needing to return to port or surface to take on supplies

Even nuclear powered mimi subs like NR-1 "Nuclear Research" submarine:disagree:; she's a special missions platform, are slow, lack endurance as they lack supplies like food and lack weaponry.

Oh, and she made practically everyone sailing aboard her barf:bad:.
NR-1_986.jpg


Your big boats are more deadly and more survivable.
 
No, and the mimi-sub would be less survivable.

Exhibit 1: Ohio class SSGN (assuming the TLAM-A was still in service).

154 tomahawk missiles, each with a range of 2,500 Km.
ohio-class-guided-missile-submarine-009.jpg


Quiet and deep-diving, she's out of range of counterattack before her missiles even make land-fall.

Exhibit 2: Sang-O class mimi-sub.

Armed with two torpedo tubes and external mine racks, she carries a limited number of weapons.
1280px-Gangneung_sub_8990.jpg


She's slow, confined to shallow waters and lacks endurance making her return to port predictablely dangerous. A enemy could lie in wait, awaiting her return from sea and ambush her will taking supplies.

Big nuke boats like LA.
uss_santa_fe_sub.jpg


Or Virginia.
150803125646-u-s-navys-submarine-fleet-1-super-169.jpg


Carry long-ranged missiles, dive deep at speed and have the endurance to slip away and cover vast distances without needing to return to port or surface to take on supplies

Even nuclear powered mimi subs like NR-1 "Nuclear Research" submarine:disagree:; she's a special missions platform, are slow, lack endurance as they lack supplies like food and lack weaponry.

Oh, and she made practically everyone sailing aboard her barf:bad:.
NR-1_986.jpg


Your big boats are more deadly and more survivable.
shallow water scenario ..
 
Agility and precision strike.

Do kindly research the speed and diving depth of sub mimi-subs. They are anything but agile.

shallow water scenario ..

So right at home for Virginia then:partay:.

Virginia, a 300ft nuclear attack submarine, was designed with operating within littoral waters in mind and are equipped with special machinery and sensors to allow them too.
 
Do kindly research the speed and diving depth of sub mimi-subs.



So right at home for Virginia then:partay:.

Virginia, a 300ft nuclear attack submarine, was designed to operating within littoral waters and are equipped with special machinery and sensors to allow them too.
But country like Pakistan ...out of question. Pakistan has to built and modify according to its need. Just like Israel do.
Best Sub techno is US or German and both very expensive. And Virginia class come under top 10 biggest subs.
 

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