Pakistan Navy interested in J-11Bs

[houshanghai]

I don't think there will be any problem with that ,China can handle it like they did with RD-93 and now AL31F , Also China has done this in the past don't forget the F-7's were copy of Russian mig-21's but F-7's were sold to Pakistan and that too in large numbers , China is Russia's biggest arm importer and seeing the Russian economy's current situation i don't think they will be willing to loose China

Another possibility can be Pakistan can pay royalties to Russia

well.
But if PAF is still using russian AL31F for j11B.i think that china will find a way to get these al31f from russian .

 

[pshamim]

Darky,

WS-10 engine certainly had problems but Chinese have been working hard on it. There have been aplenty of dismissive remarks by many while there has been exuberent remarks by many of the Chinese side. But truth lies in the facts that many of us choose to disregard. One of the biggest fact is that the first flight of J-20 took place with not the AL-31F engine but two uograded WS-10 engines. J-20 didn't use its afterburners for the take off. That indicates that many of the problems have been overcome by the Chinese.

I was surprised to learn that the first prototype of J-11B flew with a WS-10 engine. Questions were raised and onenever thought that J-20 will fly with a WS-10 engine because of its lower thrust. But that was then by current situation indicates that Chinese have worked out the problem. Another interesting fact is that Chinese upgraded the WS-10G and incorporated them into J-20. That shows that the new variants are far more powerful and have greater thrust than the standard WS-10.

There have been problems with the variant that has been produced by Shenyang Liming but even they have greatly solved the major problems.with the help of another institute who are producing the WS-9 for JH-7A. In spite of all these developments.

Another interesting fact is that now the new J-11Bs have received the WS-10 engines. A total of 6 regiments have received J-11s with the new engine. This engine is now operational. Flying a large number of J-11s with the new engines for the next couple of years will reveal all the kinks that will help in taking care of them and maturing the engines. If that happens, Pakistan Navy may very well see the J-11B as the offensive arm of its Naval aviation.

The other interesting factor is that the new J-10B/FC-20 is not only being tested with the new engine but has largely been used as a test bed for avionics and other systems used and introduced in J-20. This development is very important as a lot of these new technologies will find their way into J-10s, JF-17, and J-11bs.

Also there is a lot of news about the use of composites and greatly enhance stealthiness for not only the aircrafts but the missiles too since China bought a leading Western manufacturer of composite material. But that is a separate issue. I currently do not

 

[truth is here]

sir is their any chance of JF-17 BLOCK 2 hitting mach 2.5 with upgraded engines?

 

[pshamim]

sir is their any chance of JF-17 BLOCK 2 hitting mach 2.5 with upgraded engines?

Not currently. Even if the thrust is higher. block-11 will be heavier as well.

 

[DARKY]

Darky,

WS-10 engine certainly had problems but Chinese have been working hard on it. There have been aplenty of dismissive remarks by many while there has been exuberent remarks by many of the Chinese side. But truth lies in the facts that many of us choose to disregard. One of the biggest fact is that the first flight of J-20 took place with not the AL-31F engine but two uograded WS-10 engines. J-20 didn't use its afterburners for the take off. That indicates that many of the problems have been overcome by the Chinese.

I was surprised to learn that the first prototype of J-11B flew with a WS-10 engine. Questions were raised and onenever thought that J-20 will fly with a WS-10 engine because of its lower thrust. But that was then by current situation indicates that Chinese have worked out the problem. Another interesting fact is that Chinese upgraded the WS-10G and incorporated them into J-20. That shows that the new variants are far more powerful and have greater thrust than the standard WS-10.

There have been problems with the variant that has been produced by Shenyang Liming but even they have greatly solved the major problems.with the help of another institute who are producing the WS-9 for JH-7A. In spite of all these developments.

Another interesting fact is that now the new J-11Bs have received the WS-10 engines. A total of 6 regiments have received J-11s with the new engine. This engine is now operational. Flying a large number of J-11s with the new engines for the next couple of years will reveal all the kinks that will help in taking care of them and maturing the engines. If that happens, Pakistan Navy may very well see the J-11B as the offensive arm of its Naval aviation.

The other interesting factor is that the new J-10B/FC-20 is not only being tested with the new engine but has largely been used as a test bed for avionics and other systems used and introduced in J-20. This development is very important as a lot of these new technologies will find their way into J-10s, JF-17, and J-11bs.

Also there is a lot of news about the use of composites and greatly enhance stealthiness for not only the aircrafts but the missiles too since China bought a leading Western manufacturer of composite material. But that is a separate issue. I currently do not

Sir,

I agree with all the facts presented by you.......The Engines produced for testing on aircrafts are entirely different from the engines which are mass produced for the Aircrafts to be in service the real problem lies in here.......there was a very good document released by some Chinese about the problems which the Engine Manufacturing in China faces Currently and why it is lagging behind in development of Turbofan engines......

Not a Small problem by any stretch of Imagination !!
I did start a thread on that but got very little response......a few Chinese members did reply however.

Here the link for the documentChina SignPost 39 China Tactical Aircraft Jet Engine Deep Dive 20110626

And this is for the thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/118624-china-could-make-5th-gen-engines-2021-a.html

Every big development require time and experience !!

About the bolded parts.......bit off topic but I would like to inform you that we also have composite body and composite motors for our Agni V missile to be tested after next month...........thanks to the Tejas program where extensive research was done in CFCs......and it has been paying off even new/upgraded Su 30MKI would have full composite or I should say Carbon Fiber Composite body............as we have it for Tejas.

 

[fatman17]

Darky,

WS-10 engine certainly had problems but Chinese have been working hard on it. There have been aplenty of dismissive remarks by many while there has been exuberent remarks by many of the Chinese side. But truth lies in the facts that many of us choose to disregard. One of the biggest fact is that the first flight of J-20 took place with not the AL-31F engine but two uograded WS-10 engines. J-20 didn't use its afterburners for the take off. That indicates that many of the problems have been overcome by the Chinese.

I was surprised to learn that the first prototype of J-11B flew with a WS-10 engine. Questions were raised and onenever thought that J-20 will fly with a WS-10 engine because of its lower thrust. But that was then by current situation indicates that Chinese have worked out the problem. Another interesting fact is that Chinese upgraded the WS-10G and incorporated them into J-20. That shows that the new variants are far more powerful and have greater thrust than the standard WS-10.

There have been problems with the variant that has been produced by Shenyang Liming but even they have greatly solved the major problems.with the help of another institute who are producing the WS-9 for JH-7A. In spite of all these developments.

Another interesting fact is that now the new J-11Bs have received the WS-10 engines. A total of 6 regiments have received J-11s with the new engine. This engine is now operational. Flying a large number of J-11s with the new engines for the next couple of years will reveal all the kinks that will help in taking care of them and maturing the engines. If that happens, Pakistan Navy may very well see the J-11B as the offensive arm of its Naval aviation.

The other interesting factor is that the new J-10B/FC-20 is not only being tested with the new engine but has largely been used as a test bed for avionics and other systems used and introduced in J-20. This development is very important as a lot of these new technologies will find their way into J-10s, JF-17, and J-11bs.

Also there is a lot of news about the use of composites and greatly enhance stealthiness for not only the aircrafts but the missiles too since China bought a leading Western manufacturer of composite material. But that is a separate issue. I currently do not

Sir,
i believe the issue with chinese engines remains with reliability, durability and service cycle of the powerplants which remain inferior to western/russian engines.

 

[araz]

Sir,

I agree with all the facts presented by you.......The Engines produced for testing on aircrafts are entirely different from the engines which are mass produced for the Aircrafts to be in service the real problem lies in here.......there was a very good document released by some Chinese about the problems which the Engine Manufacturing in China faces Currently and why it is lagging behind in development of Turbofan engines......

Not a Small problem by any stretch of Imagination !!
I did start a thread on that but got very little response......a few Chinese members did reply however.

Here the link for the documentChina SignPost 39 China Tactical Aircraft Jet Engine Deep Dive 20110626

And this is for the thread
http://www.defence.pk/forums/china-defence/118624-china-could-make-5th-gen-engines-2021-a.html

Every big development require time and experience !!

About the bolded parts.......bit off topic but I would like to inform you that we also have composite body and composite motors for our Agni V missile to be tested after next month...........thanks to the Tejas program where extensive research was done in CFCs......and it has been paying off even new/upgraded Su 30MKI would have full composite or I should say Carbon Fiber Composite body............as we have it for Tejas.

The fact that as Sir Pshamim reported that 6 regiments of J11s and additional J10s are flying with these engines points to the fact that the problems have been identified and rectified to some extent. Six regiments is a fairly large number and as pointed out will highlight any other issues which crop up during operations.
I wanted to know what was the date of the article that you put up on the net. As you know from research that there could be a good couple of years between writing and publication, but the industry moves on. What Pshamim saheb is pointing to is the current situation.
We are still not disagreeing with you and still saying that the situation is one where relaibility issues are being looked into. Those will only come about with extensive flight testing of the engines. I guess at the end of the day we need to keep an eye out for future developments.I would certainly agree that the technology has not matured yet.
Araz

 

[VCheng]

Sir,
i believe the issue with chinese engines remains with reliability, durability and service cycle of the powerplants which remain inferior to western/russian engines.

Correct.

Just compare the following between western, russian and chinese powerplants to get simple and clear idea:

MTBF, MTBO, Wt per lb of thrust, Specific fuel consumption.

 

[DARKY]

The fact that as Sir Pshamim reported that 6 regiments of J11s and additional J10s are flying with these engines points to the fact that the problems have been identified and rectified to some extent. Six regiments is a fairly large number and as pointed out will highlight any other issues which crop up during operations.
I wanted to know what was the date of the article that you put up on the net. As you know from research that there could be a good couple of years between writing and publication, but the industry moves on. What Pshamim saheb is pointing to is the current situation.
We are still not disagreeing with you and still saying that the situation is one where relaibility issues are being looked into. Those will only come about with extensive flight testing of the engines. I guess at the end of the day we need to keep an eye out for future developments.I would certainly agree that the technology has not matured yet.
Araz

I know about those regiments flying with the WS-10 engines.......and the pilots from those regiments openly came out to say about its shortcomings against Al-31F engines........which is very big thing as we all know how it goes there in China......

The main worry here is that even Russian engines being supplied to China aren't even upto the mark.......one of the main reason why WS 10 program was given a stronger push after the crashes of J-10s with the Russian engines.....

The Article is recent and about 1-2 months old.......I posted the link you can go through.........Its a very nicely composed article which succeeds in giving a clear picture of Engine Manufacturing and development in China.......and even Chinese members would agree with the author.

I did say problems cannot be rectified overnight and thats why Russian help is being sought.......to speed up the process......... and even 1st batches J-10B would be powered with Al-31FN engines as there was an order for 123 engines by China.....quiet recently.

 

[DARKY]

Correct.

Just compare the following between western, russian and chinese powerplants to get simple and clear idea:

MTBF, MTBO, Wt per lb of thrust, Specific fuel consumption.

Russian engines have just started to be on par with their western counterparts Al-41, Item 117 and 117C/S, Item-129 hold very good promise and match their western counterparts upto certain extent........which was not the case a decade back............However China would take some time......possibly a decade to be on par with Russian Manufacturers even.......and at least 15 years to reach the standards of western manufacturers if every things happens according to the book.

The time line of development clearly shows even after 25 years the problems with WS 10 persists.

 

[cloneman]

I know about those regiments flying with the WS-10 engines.......and the pilots from those regiments openly came out to say about its shortcomings against Al-31F engines........which is very big thing as we all know how it goes there in China......

The main worry here is that even Russian engines being supplied to China aren't even upto the mark.......one of the main reason why WS 10 program was given a stronger push after the crashes of J-10s with the Russian engines.....

The Article is recent and about 1-2 months old.......I posted the link you can go through.........Its a very nicely composed article which succeeds in giving a clear picture of Engine Manufacturing and development in China.......and even Chinese members would agree with the author.

I did say problems cannot be rectified overnight and thats why Russian help is being sought.......to speed up the process......... and even 1st batches J-10B would be powered with Al-31FN engines as there was an order for 123 engines by China.....quiet recently.

1.The FWS-10 project has nothing to do with the AL-31 .Import or not import the AL-31,the AVIC and the PLA will always push it.
2.Tell us what are the problems on the FWS-10A and which part should we agree with the author?
3.Tell us why are you so sure that the J-10B for the PLAAF will adorpt the AL-31FN? The insider in Yangliang test cental doesn't have that kind of confidence.

 

[DARKY]

1.The FWS-10 project has nothing to do with the AL-31 .Import or not import the AL-31,the AVIC and the PLA will always push it.
2.Tell us what are the problems on the FWS-10A and which part should we agree with the author?

Go through the article......if you haven't gone yet.......I told "would agree"......I did not say must/have to agree.....every big development comes with obstacles and its a fact clearly seen with WS-10.........and every other Engine manufacturer around the world had/have problems.....when a completely new engine is being manufactured.....China is no different for me.

 

[DARKY]

1.The FWS-10 project has nothing to do with the AL-31 .Import or not import the AL-31,the AVIC and the PLA will always push it.
2.Tell us what are the problems on the FWS-10A and which part should we agree with the author?

It does not only say about WS-10 in particular it emphasizes more on the general problems being faced by Chinese engine manufacturers.

3.Tell us why are you so sure that the J-10B for the PLAAF will adorpt the AL-31FN? The insider in Yangliang test cental doesn't have that kind of confidence.

No.....we don't have Insiders nor do we believe in Insiders we believe in what we see..........If Al-31FN is not being put on J-10B with the production lines closed for J10A.......what are 123 engines are being imported for???.......some fancy museum.....or floating casinos??

 

[cloneman]

Go through the article......if you haven't gone yet.......I told "would agree"......I did not say must/have to agree.....every big development comes with obstacles and its a fact clearly seen with WS-10.........and every other Engine manufacturer around the world had/have problems.....when a completely new engine is being manufactured.....China is no different for me.

The author didn't give any answer or explanation about the FWS-10 high ratio of failure acturally.But the mathmatics already indicates that an industrial product's failure obeying the rule of the Bathtub curve.The FWS-10 serie are in the infant mortality region of the belowed picture,while the other two(F-100 and AL-31 family) already past this region and entered the constant rate region since the 1980s.Don't forget the F-100 serie for the F-15 were even worse than the current FWS-10 and sucessfully made the F-15s sitting in the yarld for several years while today it could probably become the most reliable engine all over the world.All in all,the FWS-10 high failure ratio is not due to a single or several technical problems and it could only be solved by the time past untile it enterers the reliable stage.So basically your source has no creadits and we Chinese don't agree with it.

Furthur reading about the Bathtub Curve.The Bathtub Curve and Product Failure Behavior (Part 1 of 2)

 

[cloneman]

No.....we don't have Insiders nor do we believe in Insiders we believe in what we see..........If Al-31FN is not being put on J-10B with the production lines closed for J10A.......what are 123 engines are being imported for???.......some fancy museum.....or floating casinos??

Apparentlly you didn't see anything and you have no idea what you are talking about. The new order is for the Pakistani FC-20.The PLAAF J-10B will use the FWS-10B.Don't make wild guess and stupid comment if you know nothing about the project.