Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deal

[Haris Ali2140]

Russian small range aur defences are exposed now. Look what happened to Panstir and BUK in Syria

Situation in Syria can't be compared. Any AD system either in India or in Pakistan will be multilayered.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Situation in Syria can't be compared. Any AD system either in India or in Pakistan will be multilayered.

Talk is about AD moving with Army Formation not protecting the strategic location

 

[Signalian]

The AH-1Z deal can possibly open doors for the 48 x AH-1F to be upgraded and able to carry AGM-114 Hellfire ATGM as well as 2.75in (70mm) rocket pods for APKWS laser-guided rockets. Other upgrades could have included AAR-47 missile approach warning system and AN/ALE-47 chaff /flare dispensers as well as MX-15D electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) turret. A new mission computer, a full suite of LCD multifunction displays, an embedded software digital map and navigation controls just like Jordanian upgrade of AH-1F. Upgrade would also include air frame.

Its not expected that 12 (or 15 or 24) x AH-1Z would have carried 1000 x Hellfire Missiles.The payload of Hellfire can also be shared by T-129 and upgraded AH-1F. It would have been a sight to see a combination of AH-1Z and multiple upgraded AH-1F working together through a Data Link, with AH-1Z providing EW support and designating targets while upgraded AH-1F taking out the targets with AGM-114 just like AH-64E of IA.

The South African Rooivalk carries a French engine. Z-9 in PN carries a copy/variant of French engine. Turkey has asked for an extension of a year to finalize engine for PAA T-129 otherwise can look into french option too. However, TS-1400 need to be tested extensively in 2020 before Turkey delivers TS-1400 equipped T-129 to PAA, post 2025 probably.

Z-10ME can make it into PAA ranks if it is satisfied with Z-10ME performance and engine. The avionics and weapons package will be interesting since it can already carry HJ-8 from which Baktar Shikan is derived and also the newer HJ-10 which is comparable to AGM-114 in some aspects just like UMTAS of T-129. Both Turkey and China have been working on MmW FCR however AH-1Z seems to be lacking the LongBow MmW in the deal with PAA. Just like AH-1Z is used for amphibious forces, the Z-10 has been tested for same.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

The AH-1Z deal can possibly open doors for the 48 x AH-1F to be upgraded and able to carry AGM-114 Hellfire ATGM as well as 2.75in (70mm) rocket pods for APKWS laser-guided rockets. Other upgrades could have included AAR-47 missile approach warning system and AN/ALE-47 chaff /flare dispensers as well as MX-15D electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) turret. A new mission computer, a full suite of LCD multifunction displays, an embedded software digital map and navigation controls just like Jordanian upgrade of AH-1F. Upgrade would also include air frame.

Its not expected that 12 (or 15 or 24) x AH-1Z would have carried 1000 x Hellfire Missiles.The payload of Hellfire can also be shared by T-129 and upgraded AH-1F. It would have been a sight to see a combination of AH-1Z and multiple upgraded AH-1F working together through a Data Link, with AH-1Z providing EW support and designating targets while upgraded AH-1F taking out the targets with AGM-114 just like AH-64E of IA.

The South African Rooivalk carries a French engine. Z-9 in PN carries a copy/variant of French engine. Turkey has asked for an extension of a year to finalize engine for PAA T-129 otherwise can look into french option too. However, TS-1400 need to be tested extensively in 2020 before Turkey delivers TS-1400 equipped T-129 to PAA, post 2025 probably.

Z-10ME can make it into PAA ranks if it is satisfied with Z-10ME performance and engine. The avionics and weapons package will be interesting since it can already carry HJ-8 from which Baktar Shikan is derived and also the newer HJ-10 which is comparable to AGM-114 in some aspects just like UMTAS of T-129. Both Turkey and China have been working on MmW FCR however AH-1Z seems to be lacking the LongBow MmW in the deal with PAA. Just like AH-1Z is used for amphibious forces, the Z-10 has been tested for same.


https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/...op-ses-upgrade-jordans-ah-1fs-cobra-helicopt/

https://quwa.org/2019/12/02/update-2019-pakistans-t129-atak-attack-helicopter-purchase/

Were Turks offering TOT???

 

[aziqbal]

sometimes second best is good enough

T129 and AH-1 is a waste of time and we dont have time

should have signed the Z10 deal in 2018 and by now we would have had them

ok they are not the best but better than a non-existent T129

 

[khanasifm]

I am sure Turkish heli with western technology cost 1.5b for 30 and Chinese with western updates may cost less and paa may get 50 or more in same price

Paa current requirement is around ~30 or so it would be wise to use saving on upgrade and renewal of transport fleet as puma may need replacement and mi-171 is good replacement

Paa still operates 2 sqn 20-30 pumas not sure how much life left

Older paa puma bought in 70s were replaced/augmented by puma from uae bought/transferred in 2000s

 

[Signalian]

I am sure Turkish heli with western technology cost 1.5b for 30 and Chinese with western updates may cost less and paa may get 50 or more in same price

Paa current requirement is around ~30 or so it would be wise to use saving on upgrade and renewal of transport fleet as puma may need replacement and mi-171 is good replacement

Paa still operates 2 sqn 20-30 pumas not sure how much life left

Older paa puma bought in 70s were replaced/augmented by puma from uae bought/transferred in 2000s

Transport helis are more in need than Gunships.

 

[jaybird]

I just hope the Z-10 is modified to address the factors that convinced Pakistan to choose the T-129.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/1...ck_Helicopter_Over_Chinese_Z_10_#.XlazHShKiUk
To paraphrase the article: More powerful engines are needed to carry the full weapons load in the Hot and High Altitude conditions the Pakistan Army expects to operate in. Any indication these improvements were made? It seems to mention comparisons to the T-129 in the following video. If you could be so kind to confirm, I don't understand Mandarin.

Other than that, the Z-10 looks like a good Helicopter that we know will be supported by China and therefore can have a long and fruitful life in Pakistani Service.

As an Aside, if Pakistan procures the Z-10, it should also try to procure the TAI Hurkus-C as a Light CAS platform for the Gilgit-Baltistan area as it may be able to operate on mountain roads where jet powered aircraft would be limited from operating. Even a small fleet of 30 Hurkus just for the Gilgit-Baltistan/Kashmir mountain areas will allow the Pakistan army to have constant CAS with long endurance nearby. The Hurkus could also pull up to 7 G and carry 1500 kg of stores (weapons and fuel). If armed with the New highly agile Turkish WVR missile (25 km range); it could be used in the mountains to hunt down Indian Apaches, or transport Helicopters trying to carry out another "Surgical Strike". The Hurkus is more than 100 mph faster then the Apache. the Turkish WVR missile could also be developed to use the RF seeker from the new Turkish BVR missile to be able to counter any IR Defenses the Apache may try to use. These Hurkus could be hidden near normal roads in small caves carved out of hill sides, similar to how the Swiss air force operates, and could operate like airborne guerrilla forces in the mountains of the North.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI_Hürkuş#Variants

PAF K-8 trainers should also be adapted to perform the CAS role (IRST, small AESA for targeting), as well ,under the Army on the plains and desert and marshlands. The have a max 1000 kg stores carriage capability, but in large numbers, armed with laser guided rockets and PGMs, they can be a deadly force to counter Indian Integrated battle groups. In times of war, Pakistan should ask China to Borrow 100 of their K-8, if they can spare them, to perform this CAS role. Dedicated fixed wing CAS planes alongside Attack Helicopters will take the pressure off the Air force to protect ground troops, allowing them to focus on dealing with the IAF and Indian Integrated Air Defense Network.

BTW, how many K-8s does Pakistan operates? I have read somewhere between 30-40, while in other places the numbers are a lot higher.

Pakistan should not limit itself to just attack helicopters. UCAV would also be good but they are nearly equally priced as the Hurkus but with manned platforms you can deal with heavy enemy jamming and you can probably land more reliably in the mountains with the wind shears.

Rough summary of the video you posted.

The video basically say Z-10 loss it's bid to T-129 in user trials with Pakistan mainly due to engine performance back in 2015-2016. And Z-10ME is the upgraded version of Z-10 after feedback from the Pakistan trial. The original Z-10 sent to Pakistan were basic version that can save Pakistani a lot of money without all the fancy extras but can still do the job. But sometimes cheaper price is not the most important factor as specs and technology have to meet the requirements of the buyer too, especially there are other options to compare and choose from.

Although Pakistan is an old friend and customer for China with weapon systems. You can't blame them for choosing T-129. National interest first above all else. The two WZ-9 engines was not strong enough to carry maximum payload in attack configuration and armor protection is relatively weak. On the other hand the T129 was installed with a more powerful T700-GE-401 engine bought from the U.S.

Z-10ME improvement over older version of Z-10:

More powerful engine and avionics. Added armor plates on bottom part of both side for better protection of the pilots and cockpit area and added large armor plates at the engine area of the gunship for for improved combat survivability.

Since the prospective customers of Z-10ME are aim for the Middle East and North Africa nations with desert terrain. Z-10ME also added anti-dust/sand filter system for the engines. And designed to blow the dust and sands out of the engines before they enter the gas turbine engine and clog the turbine section and erosion of the machinery rotating components. It's not an important upgrade for Southern China operation, but it might be a life saving upgrade in Middle East and North Africa's desert terrain operation.

The most dangerous threat for attack helicopters are modern Man-Portable Air-Defense System. Gunships can take some hits with small firearms because of armor or just execute evasive maneuvers. But modern Mpads are nightmare for all helicopters. Z-10ME upgraded with 4 new missile approach warning system from front, side to back to alleviate the threat. Since most Mpads use IR to track/lock helicopters, Z-10ME also modified the engine exhaust facing upward instead of downward compared to old Z-10.

Ammunition storage for the gun also move to under the bottom part of the second pilot instead of the front for better balance and flight performance, plus extra ammunition storage compared to old version. It's also armed with a new 20mm gun that can use NATO ammunition instead of the 23mm gun for better integration with NATO standard countries.

Z-10ME can carry 16 different types of missiles or rockets including Anti-tank guided missile (ATGM), Air-to-ground missile(AGM) Rockets and Air to Air Missile(AAM) like the TY-90 against enemy helicopters.

 

[airomerix]

Pakistan considers Chinese attack helicopters on back of stalled AH-1Z, T129 deal
By Dominic Perry26 February 2020

Pakistan looks set to turn to China for its attack helicopter replacement needs after US embargoes halted sales of rival Bell and Turkish Aerospace products.

Islamabad had in 2015 ordered 12 Bell AH-1Zs under the USA’s Foreign Military Sales process and then followed that in 2018 with a deal for 30 Turkish Aerospace T129s worth $1.5 billion.

But the AH-1Z sale has been on hold since US President Donald Trump cut security funding to Pakistan, and export sanctions related to the US-built LHTEC T800 engines which power the T129 has led to the suspension of that contract.

This impasse, and a pressing need to retire its fleet of 48 Bell AH-1Fs, is now pushing Islamabad to consider alternatives, Major General Syed Najeeb Ahmed, commander, army aviation, told Defence IQ’s International Military Helicopter conference in London on 26 February.

“We are looking at other options. One of them is in China in the shape of the new attack helicopter they have created called the Z-10ME,” he says. “In case the first two options do not materialise this third option will be considered.”

Pakistan had previously evaluated an earlier version of the CAIC Z-10, but Ahmed says the latest iteration has improved weapons and systems.

Ahmed is extremely doubtful that the AH-1Z deal can be resurrected, and although Turkish Aerospace is developing an indigenous replacement engine for the T129, he is not confident that this will be ready in time.

In fact, Pakistan has set a deadline of July this year for a final decision, Ahmed says.

The relative urgency is driven by India’s capability increases, as New Delhi grows its fleet of Boeing AH-64E Apaches.

“The Cobras are no match for the Apaches that the Indians are getting,” he says. “We definitely want to match that [capability].”

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/helico...ck-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals/136944.article

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...s-on-back-of-stalled-ah-1z-t129-deals.654813/

Thread already there

 

[I S I]

We won't learn would we? Wasted 3+ years on American sanctioned prone military gear & coming back to point 0. That's Pakistan establishment for you.

 

[airomerix]

@Mods.

Please close this thread. Apologies.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

@Mods.

Please close this thread. Apologies.

Sir kuch achi news sunayein F16s ke hawaly se

 

[Beast]

I more and more thinking the deal with Turkey for T-129 is just for sake of diversifying Pakistan military supply and building up diplomatic r/s. Even after many set back, PA still unwilling to forsake the deal with Turkey despite knowing domestic engine or even US restart supply of engine are distant away from reality.

 

[bafxet]

After jf17 next r the indigenous helicopters