Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Will Now Have to Meet These Objectives

[LKJ86]

No. Unless I miswrote something. If that was something that got you riled up let me know and I can apologise to you.

So, what is the relationship between AVIC and COMAC?

 

[Marker]

PAC AMF is currently producing Super Mushshak, and co-producing K-8 and JF-17 aircraft. Its rebuilding factories are providing services of maintenance repair and overhaul (MRO) for FT-5, FT-6, A-5III, Mirage III/V, F-7P/F-7PG, Y-12, K-8 and JF-17 aircraft. PAC is also providing MRO services for ATAR 09C, T-56, TFE-731, F-100, J-69 engines and C-130 propellers. Furthermore MRO services for ground base radars are also provided by PAC. Avionics production factories are co-producing number of avionics components including radars used in various aircraft.

Precious resources such as skilled manpower, high tech machinery and tools available in the various factories of PAC cannot be under-utilized.

After meeting the domestic needs, PAC must be exploring International market for opportunities to sell its products and services.

One of the approaches PAC adopted to optimize utilization of its resources, is pursuing of joint-ventures with various aviation manufacturing companies such as Boeing and Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) to co-produce commercial jet-liners.

PAF/PAC continual participation in various air shows, air displays and joint-exercises, production of few promotional videos, one aerial war film and JF-17 model for DCS simulator game are some efforts towards "comprehensive marketing campaigns".

Are these approaches enough and effective????
Or PAF/PAC should be doing more!!!

Individual countries (Air Forces) holding inventories whose MRO capabilities available at PAC, should be offered MRO services at competitive rates. Transfer of MRO facilities and technical training (only for systems retired from service of PAF) could also be an option for negotiation. Country specific presentation, brochure and videos should be presented by technical team to attract the customers.

So, what is the relationship between AVIC and COMAC?

The Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, Ltd. (COMAC) is a Chinese state-owned aerospace manufacturer established on 11 May 2008 in Shanghai. It was established jointly by Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), Aluminum Corporation of China, Baosteel Group Corporation, Sinochem Group, Shanghai Guosheng Corporation Limited, and State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission. The corporation is a designer and constructor of large passenger aircraft with capacities of over 150 passengers.

The corporation collaborates with Bombardier, Boeing, Ryanair and United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) to research, design and manufacture large passenger aircraft and its parts.

 

[LKJ86]

The Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, Ltd. (COMAC) is a Chinese state-owned aerospace manufacturer established on 11 May 2008 in Shanghai. It was established jointly by Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), Aluminum Corporation of China, Baosteel Group Corporation, Sinochem Group, Shanghai Guosheng Corporation Limited, and State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission. The corporation is a designer and constructor of large passenger aircraft with capacities of over 150 passengers.

The corporation collaborates with Bombardier, Boeing, Ryanair and United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) to research, design and manufacture large passenger aircraft and its parts.

In short, AVIC and COMAC are two independent state-owned companies.

 

[Marker]

In short, AVIC and COMAC are two independent state-owned companies.

No, AVIC is one of the shareholders.
About $2.7 billions were raised as capital by the six shareholders.

 

[LKJ86]

No, AVIC is one of the shareholders.
About $2.7 billions were raised as capital by the six shareholders.

No no no, "state-owned".

You also can learn something from Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC).

 

[Marker]

No no no, "state-owned".

You also can learn something from Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC).

A state-owned enterprise (SOE) is a legal entity that is created by a government in order to partake in commercial activities on the government's behalf. It can be either wholly or partially owned by a government and is typically earmarked to participate in specific commercial activities.

Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) is also a state owned corporation. The company was established on August 28, 2016. At launch, AECC was to be capitalised with $7.5bn with AVIC and COMAC both shareholders.

Furthermore, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), Aluminum Corporation of China, Baosteel Group Corporation, Sinochem Group, Shanghai Guosheng Corporation Limited, and State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission are also state owned enterprises and the shareholders of COMAC.!!!!

In short, AVIC and COMAC are two independent state-owned companies.

AVIC mainly deals with military aircraft, helicopters, UAVs, AEW and C aircraft, small transport aircraft, Maritime Patrol Aircraft / Patrol Aircraft / Reconnaissance Aircraft and some narrow body regional airliner.

Whereas COMAC deals with narrow body and wide body commercial airliner. Though AVIC is one of the shareholders but COMAC has its own independent management.

 

[LKJ86]

A state-owned enterprise (SOE) is a legal entity that is created by a government in order to partake in commercial activities on the government's behalf. It can be either wholly or partially owned by a government and is typically earmarked to participate in specific commercial activities.

Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) is also a state owned corporation. The company was established on August 28, 2016. At launch, AECC was to be capitalised with $7.5bn with AVIC and COMAC both shareholders.

Furthermore, Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), Aluminum Corporation of China, Baosteel Group Corporation, Sinochem Group, Shanghai Guosheng Corporation Limited, and State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission are also state owned enterprises and the shareholders of COMAC.!!!!



AVIC mainly deals with military aircraft, helicopters, UAVs, AEW and C aircraft, small transport aircraft, Maritime Patrol Aircraft / Patrol Aircraft / Reconnaissance Aircraft and some narrow body regional airliner.

Whereas COMAC deals with narrow body and wide body commercial airliner. Though AVIC is one of the shareholders but COMAC has its own independent management.

To avoid AVIC as a monopoly, China breaks it up, and starts COMAC and AECC. Maybe that can help you understand the relationship among AVIC, COMAC, and AECC.

 

[serenity]

It's interesting because CAE is awarded contract by COMAC to build simulators. Like Korean company awarded contract by General Motor to engineer certain models and build them. This is world we're in where one product has many suppliers and partners.

How then does CAE know internal working and see problem with COMAC C919? I can imagine COMAC giving certain information about cockpit layout but will always be basic things. Also the copy is for easy use for pilots. This way they are more familiar with certain user interfaces. No point to change buttons around. I remember C919 uses many foreign suppliers for this civilian avionics. So makes sense many cockpit controls are the same at least for layout than A220 and similar sized and range passenger plane.

 

[araz]

Absolutely, please DO NOT put any of the dodo brain dead airforce people in charge. Put technical engineers in charge for complete end to end. Hire good MBA marketing people for sales.

Funny you say that @denel. PAC has done reasonably well under these Dodos. There is an Engineering Branch in the Air force as well you know, so it is not just pilots who run the show although to be fair they are made in charge of the show. Although I do agree regarding Marketing section being revamped. This would certainly improve things.
A

To avoid AVIC as a monopoly, China breaks it up, and starts COMAC and AECC. Maybe that can help you understand the relationship among AVIC, COMAC, and AECC.

You cannot break a monopoly when the monpolizer has a share in the subdsidiary company. It just means the Govtt has streamlined the procedure and made different entities look after its different streams of development. It does not mean breaking anybody's monopoly just streamlining and better delineation of responsibilities.
Regards

 

[LKJ86]

You cannot break a monopoly when the monpolizer has a share in the subdsidiary company. It jusat meand the Govtt has streamlined the procedure and made different entities lookafter its different streams of development. It does not mean breaking anybody's monopoly just streamlining and better delineation of responsibilities.
Regards

You underestimate the meaning of "state-owned".

 

[Trango Towers]

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Will Now Have to Meet These Objectives
Posted 7 hours ago by Haroon Hayder

• Pakistan Navy Inducts Latest MPA & UAVs to Strengthen Air Operations
  
  
  
  
  The Senate’s Committee also announced objectives and goals for the PAC. The PAC was directed to:
  1. Accord highest priority towards increasing the combative capacity of Pakistan Air Force (PAF) by fulfilling their requirements to thwart threats to Pakistan’s air space, borders, and sea frontiers.
  2. Systematically decrease external dependence by undertaking innovative research and evolving a self-reliance strategy.
  3. Increase the commercialization of its defensive products through comprehensive marketing campaigns. By doing so, PAC will not only generate foreign revenue, but it would help to strengthen bilateral military ties with different countries.
  4. Adopt a realistic costing system to make its products more competitive in international markets. For this, it needs to eliminate surplus manpower and logistical channels to decrease the prices of its products.
  5. Continue to provide maximum security to its defense production installations.
  Taking into consideration the directions of the committee, it appears that the PAC has two tasks at its hand; first, to eliminate dependence on external assistance. Second, to increase the exports of defensive products to other countries.
  
  Moreover, towards the end of the last year, PAC had signed an MoU with the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC). PAC and AVIC will manufacture commercial aircraft under the MoU. Other than this, PAC’s Project Azm is heading towards completion. Launched in 2017, Project Azm aims to add indigenously built Fifth Generation Stealth Fighter Jets in Pakistan’s military arsenal.
  
  Both initiatives would help PAC to achieve the objectives laid down by the Senate’s Committee.
  
  Read more details at Senate of Pakistan’s website.

Who wrote this.

'Eliminate dependence on foreign assistance'....
'Project azm is near comlletion'

Firstly even America gets foreign assistance in the defence sector. F35...how many international partner?
Project azm has barely started

Direction is right but the write up is crap

 

[Marker]

To avoid AVIC as a monopoly, China breaks it up, and starts COMAC and AECC. Maybe that can help you understand the relationship among AVIC, COMAC, and AECC.

AVIC was split into AVIC I and AVIC II in July 1999.

AVIC I was historically focused on large planes such as bombers (Xian H-6, Xian JH-7), medium commercial planes (ARJ21), or fighter planes (J-7, J-8, J-10, J-11 and JF-17), while AVIC II was mainly focused on smaller planes, such as trainers (JL-8, utility aircraft (licensed version of Cessna 208 Caravan), L-15, and CJ-6), small passenger airliners (Harbin Y-12), medium range transport aircraft (Y-8), and helicopters (Z-8, Z-9, WZ-10 and Z-11).

However, the two corporation were merged in October 2008 because the previous separation resulted in split resources and led to redundant projects.

AVIC is a corporation having over 100 subsidiaries, 27 listed companies.

COMAC was established in an effort aimed at reducing China's dependency on Boeing and Airbus and eventually compete with Airbus and Boeing in the civilian airline industry. Companies dealing medium commercial planes and previously under AVIC I were transferred to COMAC.

AECC was established to focus on aeroengine and related technology development. The corporation consists of 46 affiliate companies, including 22 engine companies, several institutes, 3 aeroengine-repairing factories and some other small companies, with the majority of the affiliate companies having been split from AVIC.

In short, AVIC became major shareholder of both COMAC and AECC by transferring its assets and companies.

I think establishing of COMAC and AECC was not because of AVIC's monopoly in China's aviation industry. This was done only to have better and efficient control on the assets and companies.

Hierarchy and working of enterprises in China are completely different as compared to their western counterparts.

Almost all companies working under these corporations are listed in Chinese stock exchanges. These companies do compete with each other. Very prominent example is the manufacturers of Chinese AESA radars KLJ-7A and LKF601E both competing for JF-17. So monopoly is out of question.

 

[denel]

Funny you say that @denel. PAC has done reasonably well under these Dodos. There is an Engineering Branch in the Air force as well you know, so it is not just pilots who run the show although to be fair they are made in charge of the show. Although I do agree regarding Marketing section being revamped. This would certainly improve things.
A


You cannot break a monopoly when the monpolizer has a share in the subdsidiary company. It just means the Govtt has streamlined the procedure and made different entities look after its different streams of development. It does not mean breaking anybody's monopoly just streamlining and better delineation of responsibilities.
Regards

Can you imagine if this was run by aeronautical engineers and university affiliated graduates; out of the box thinking vs being constrained by folks who have narrow view points. That is what I am trying to get at. No offence.

 

[HRK]

Can you imagine if this was run by aeronautical engineers and university affiliated graduates; out of the box thinking vs being constrained by folks who have narrow view points. That is what I am trying to get at. No offence.

Brother try to understand that PAC is run by engineers not soldiers only thing is they are hired and trained by PAF in their respective engineering disciplines.

You might be not aware that PAC have many Phds in different engineering disciplines, even some of them were involved in restoration/recovery of our damage SAAB-2000 aircrafts

 

[Marker]

Can you imagine if this was run by aeronautical engineers and university affiliated graduates; out of the box thinking vs being constrained by folks who have narrow view points. That is what I am trying to get at. No offence.

Please note that Pakistan Air Force only induct those for commission as GD Pilots and Aeronautical Engineers who are out of the box thinkers.

Fighter pilots are considered as elite in GD(P) branch as these are the best of the best. That's why PAF is considered as one of the world's best Air Forces. All senior pilots hold MS degree in military sciences.

Similarly, about 20 to 30% of young Aeronautical Engineers are holding either MS or Ph D degrees. Most of these highly qualified engineers are deployed either at CAE PAF Academy, Risalpur or PAC Kamra.

If these highly qualified and professional people are not out of the box thinkers than who will be?

Also note that K-8 and JF-17, jointly produced by China and Pakistan were proved to be great success in a highly competitive international market. On the other hand, other Chinese military aircraft could not succeed. Appreciate that JF-17 was inducted in PAF. Chinese Air Force did not procure these fighters. Even than JF-17 was sold to two countries and many other are seriously considering/negotiating to buy these aircraft. Both versions of Mushshak, MFI-17 and MFI-395, displayed outstanding performance in international market.

Overall marketing performance was good. But now marketing campaign should evolve for better performance!!!