PA TANKS comparison with contempory tanks

[Dazzler]

What Pakistan Army tanks can fire this? And are we equipped with these rounds?

Yes, but we manufacture them as per our requirements , they have a compatibility with T-80ud and AZ

 

[Keshav Murali]

@Dazzler, nice images.

Does PA use 3VBM-13?

Also, 1100 mm penetration can be achieved by Type-IIM no problem, if the target is mild steel or steel that is at least 40-50% softer than normal RHA. militarysta explicitly stated on this penetration value on RHA - "Bull****"

And one Chinese kid was claiming 1100 mm was achieved on 270 BHN steel by a 105 mm HEAT round

I'd advise you to take these claims with a packet of salt, rather than a grain.

 

[Dazzler]

no idea whether 3VBM-13 is in service with PA but it is shown in UD's arsenal so it could be there.

Regarding the 1100 mm penetration, i said "claimed", speaks something

 

[Dazzler]

trap holes in T-90MS aka thinner/ weaker armour protection

 

[Dazzler]

Type-II, 3rd from above..

 

[Keshav Murali]

@Dazzler, is the lower tank in the picture actually a T-90S?

Because the Indian T-90S's turret shape resembles the T-90MS shape shown very closely.

Also, all tanks have the same weak points frontally.

i.e.

1. Gun Mantlet
2. Driver's hatch
3. Gap between hull and turret
4. Visible part of the roof
5. Exposed Gunner's sight modules

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler, is the lower tank in the picture actually a T-90S?

Because the Indian T-90S's turret shape resembles the T-90MS shape shown very closely.

Also, all tanks have the same weak points frontally.

i.e.

1. Gun Mantlet
2. Driver's hatch
3. Gap between hull and turret
4. Visible part of the roof
5. Exposed Gunner's sight modules

Second pic is of T-90S Bhishma of Indian Army, red outline indicates MS turret

Generally, all tanks share pretty much similar vulnerable areas but it is apparent that the turret on T90S, M/ is more compart but in MS, it is oblungated to accommodate new electronics and to create more roomy interior.

However, such a turret modification exposed it more than before and calls for a thicker armour/ ERA which unfortunately is not there, aiding to weaker parts more than M or S.

The thing is, an upgrade is suppose to reduce vulnerability, not to increase it fruther.

See post # 724

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Second pic is of T-90S Bhishma of Indian Army, red outline indicates MS turret

Generally, all tanks share pretty much similar vulnerable areas but it is apparent that the turret on T90S, M/ is more compart but in MS, it is oblungated to accommodate new electronics and to create more roomy interior.

However, such a turret modification exposed it more than before and calls for a thicker armour/ ERA which unfortunately is not there, aiding to weaker parts more than M or S.

The thing is, an upgrade is suppose to reduce vulnerability, not to increase it fruther.

See post # 724

But the upper roof area u painted red in t-90MS seems covered by relikt ERA?So how is that vulnerable?

 

[Keshav Murali]

Second pic is of T-90S Bhishma of Indian Army, red outline indicates MS turret

Generally, all tanks share pretty much similar vulnerable areas but it is apparent that the turret on T90S, M/ is more compart but in MS, it is oblungated to accommodate new electronics and to create more roomy interior.

However, such a turret modification exposed it more than before and calls for a thicker armour/ ERA which unfortunately is not there, aiding to weaker parts more than M or S.

The thing is, an upgrade is suppose to reduce vulnerability, not to increase it fruther.

See post # 724

I think you didn't understand me or the photo. The T-90S turret shown doesn't seem to be a T-90S - the actual image, that is. And it is certainly not Indian Army, that's not their paint scheme.

And that is a propaganda photo by well known Soviet tank expert Andrei Harkonnen, he absolutely despises Russian tank designs. Gur Khan does this sort of stuff with T-64BM and T-80 variants.

T-90MS has better protection from what we know so far, and roof is better protected than in T-90S.

But the upper roof area u painted red in t-90MS seems covered by relikt ERA?So how is that vulnerable?

Whatever ERA it has, the upper roof needs heavy Triple-Hardness RHA or Composite armour to stand impact from APFSDS rounds. It is a weak area whether or not it has Relikt, Kaktus, Kontackt and the what not.

 

[Dazzler]

I think you didn't understand me or the photo. The T-90S turret shown doesn't seem to be a T-90S - the actual image, that is. And it is certainly not Indian Army, that's not their paint scheme.

And that is a propaganda photo by well known Soviet tank expert Andrei Harkonnen, he absolutely despises Russian tank designs. Gur Khan does this sort of stuff with T-64BM and T-80 variants.

T-90MS has better protection from what we know so far, and roof is better protected than in T-90S.



Whatever ERA it has, the upper roof needs heavy Triple-Hardness RHA or Composite armour to stand impact from APFSDS rounds. It is a weak area whether or not it has Relikt, Kaktus, Kontackt and the what not.

I agree both Andrei and Gur Khan are at war for sure

at the same time, the MS version despite its glorifications and increased side armour and better electronics and relikt instead of K-5 is yet another T-90 version.

It is too early to speculate on MS but some things are so evidently clear that it still uses AZ autoloader with same original speed as the T-90S heck they could have done atleast what Czeks did with their M4CZs i.e. improve the speed and save precious time. As per my observation SO FAR, Russians have presented Indians with yet another T-90 facelift which, though an improvement over the S and M.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

I agree both Andrei and Gur Khan are at war for sure

at the same time, the MS version despite its glorifications and increased side armour and better electronics and relikt instead of K-5 is yet another T-90 version.

It is too early to speculate on MS but some things are so evidently clear that it still uses AZ autoloader with same original speed as the T-90S heck they could have done atleast what Czeks did with their M4CZs i.e. improve the speed and save precious time. As per my observation SO FAR, Russians have presented Indians with yet another T-90 facelift which, though an improvement over the S and M.

As far as i know IA has rejected the t-90ms as a whole but incorporated parts of it along with DRDO modifications into our own upgrade package built to IA specifications.

 

[Dazzler]

I think you didn't understand me or the photo. The T-90S turret shown doesn't seem to be a T-90S - the actual image, that is. And it is certainly not Indian Army, that's not their paint scheme.

It is the IA T-90S Bhishma, see these

 

[Dazzler]

As far as i know IA has rejected the t-90ms as a whole but incorporated parts of it along with DRDO modifications into our own upgrade package built to IA specifications.

Could be but as per this article,, they are going for MS..

By Wang Yang, Sina English
The Indian army is pondering over the possibility to postpone trials of its home-made Arjun tanks to facilitate a larger order for T-90MS tanks from Russia, according to an article published on the Russian military-industrial complex website on Nov 26th.
It’s reported that the Indian army will place a fresh order for purchase of 354 latest T-90MS tanks, which will be allocated to the six tank regiments deployed in the border region between China and India, including two tank brigades and a mountain strike corps.
These new tanks will supplement the 1657 Russian T-90S, and 2414 T-72M tanks already deployed on the Pakistan border.
The Indian army has also decided to purchase another 124 home-made Arjun tanks with an order for another 118 in the pipeline.
Indeed, the Arjun tank -- developed in India by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) -- outperforms the Russia-made T-90 in comparative trials.
But the Indian army seems to insist that the 60-tonne Arjun is too heavy for the soft deserts in Punjab and the Kashmir region, implying that the Arjun tank will only be available for 4-6 of the army’s 65 tank regiments in the future.
Being a new and upgraded version of the T-90S that India bought in 2001, the T-90MS is widely regarded as well suited for the extreme cold in the northern regions of India.
The Arjun, in contrast, is designed to withstand the heat of the Indian plains, where the T-90S has repeatedly malfunctioned in high temperatures.
According to a senior general who is still in service, the Indian army is “justified in deploying the T-90MS in the border region between China and India” and “it’s better to replace the old T-90S with Arjun in some high temperature areas“.

India to purchase T-90MS Tanks for deployment along Sino-Indian border - World News - SINA English

the sooner the better....

Global Tender for India’s T-90 Tank Ammunition

The Indian Army is entering the global market for the purchase of unspecified number of ammunition worth $550 million for the Russian made T-90 tanks it operates. The ammunition being used by the Indian Army for the T-90 tanks was contracted along with the purchase of T-90 tanks in 2000.

While the Indian made ammunition for the T-90 tank has been rejected by the Indian Army due to technical faults, the price of the Russian made ammunition has been increased 300 per cent by the Russians.

The Indian Army has now decided to hunt in the international market for a variety of ammunition for the T-90 tanks, including the standard 330 grade ammunition and two other varieties for the T-90 tanks.

The tender is expected to be floated in December and is likely to be sent to Dhiel defence of Germany, IWI of Israel, Rosoboronoexport of Russia, BAE of United Kingdom, Bumar of Poland and Ukrainexport of Ukraine.

There were technical problems with the Indian made ammunition for the 125 mm gun of the T-90 tanks especially relating to packing and the rate of the fire. As such the Indian made ammunition has not been used for years, and is lying unused. The Indian Army has rejected the Indian made ammunition and has been using the Russian made ammunition only contracted along with the first contract of the Tank. The Russians want 300 per cent increase in price of the ammunition for extra supplies.

The purchase of the ammunition for the T-90 tanks is likely to be done on Urgent basis which would mean that the winners would be selected in the shortest possible time.

http://www.defencenow.com/news/882/global-tender-for-indias-t-90-tank-ammunition.html

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Could be but as per this article,, they are going for MS..

Acc to kunal biswas,t-90MS plan is scrapped.Instead.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
User-trials of a T-90S MBT equipped with IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander’s panoramic sight and driver’s uncooled thermal imager (derived from that developed for the Arjun Mk1A MBT) have just gotten underway.
The CVRDE-upgraded prototype of the T-90S has done away with the T01-K04 and substitutes it with the IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander’s panoramic sight (which houses a SAGEM-built MATIS-STD thermal imager operating in the 3-5 micron bandwidth), which has resulted in enhanced static visibility levels for both the gunner and commander.
In addition, the IV528-2 digital ballistics computer has given way to an indigenous solution developed by TATA Power Strategic Electronics Division, while the IRDE-developed driver’s uncooled thermal imaging night sight has replaced the TVN-5 night-vision device.
Furthermore, a DEAL-developed MMW-based IFF system has been installed for enhancing the MBT crew’s situational awareness.


''VRDE has already developed the APU, which too is now undergoing user-trials.''

Tank wraps have been indigenised.

From MS upgrade we will be taking the digitalized interior for the upgrade.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And an APS will be added.

 

[Dazzler]

Acc to kunal biswas,t-90MS plan is scrapped.Instead.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
User-trials of a T-90S MBT equipped with IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander’s panoramic sight and driver’s uncooled thermal imager (derived from that developed for the Arjun Mk1A MBT) have just gotten underway.
The CVRDE-upgraded prototype of the T-90S has done away with the T01-K04 and substitutes it with the IRDE-developed and BEL-built commander’s panoramic sight (which houses a SAGEM-built MATIS-STD thermal imager operating in the 3-5 micron bandwidth), which has resulted in enhanced static visibility levels for both the gunner and commander.
In addition, the IV528-2 digital ballistics computer has given way to an indigenous solution developed by TATA Power Strategic Electronics Division, while the IRDE-developed driver’s uncooled thermal imaging night sight has replaced the TVN-5 night-vision device.
Furthermore, a DEAL-developed MMW-based IFF system has been installed for enhancing the MBT crew’s situational awareness.


''VRDE has already developed the APU, which too is now undergoing user-trials.''

Tank wraps have been indigenised.

From MS upgrade we will be taking the digitalized interior for the upgrade.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

And an APS will be added.

You mean T-90S as of now is without an APU or is it a new one? What happened to Swed APS they shortlisted?

Rest of the developments as you mentioned seem to make sense i.e IF Kunal is right.