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Overcoming blind hatred

Solomon2

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Dec 12, 2008
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In the just-banned thread we have an example of a Muslim who rejects the blind hatred of others - both Muslim and non-Muslim - he claims is taught in his madrasa. The same blind hatred that also drives terrorism in Pakistan. Apparently the thread was rejected on the grounds that it's "anti-Pakistani" or "anti-Muslim".

Yet if changing the extremist militant mindset cannot be discussed, how is it to be eliminated, rather than encouraged? Increased military might only reinforces the experience that force, not law and not a system of ethics, is the solution to everything. So why shouldn't the disaffected grab their own guns and rebel against the system, seeking to establish their own rule instead?
 
Just remember to put terrorists who claim to be Muslim (OBL), Jews (Ariel Sharon), Christians (Donald trump, Sarkozy, Tony Blair) or Hindus (Narendar Modi, Ajit Doval) in the same basket. Just look at the way, I said who claim to be. While rest of the people have similar concerns...they want to have a nice career and good living standards
 
Just remember to put terrorists who claim to be Muslim (OBL), Jews (Ariel Sharon), Christians (Donald trump, Sarkozy, Tony Blair) or Hindus (Narendar Modi, Ajit Doval) in the same basket -
You are confused. I'm talking about the importance of discussing issues within a society that promotes violence and terror, whereas you're discussing individuals.

Ironically coming from a zionist -
"Ironic"? Don't you think "sad" is a better word?
 
Why you want to discuss Israeli society on a Pakistani forum which don't even recognize that such society even exist.
You are confused. I'm talking about the importance of discussing issues within a society that promotes violence and terror, whereas you're discussing individuals.


"Ironic"? Don't you think "sad" is a better word?
 
Why you want to discuss Israeli society on a Pakistani forum which don't even recognize that such society even exist.
I suppose you think yourself clever for twisting my words. But will doing so reduce the violence and terror plaguing Pakistan by one iota?
 
As discussed many times previously, Israel-hatred is a thing Pakistanis have been commanded to do and forbidden to debate. There isn't a clearer example of blind hatred than that.
Just as the way the apartheid regime has forbidden the zionists of denying the existence of legal palestine right to exist and the policy of grabbing land through illegal settlement ?
 
Rabbi Dan Segal, the Mashgiach (b. 1939)
rebdon.jpg

The secular leaders of the State of Israel are placing us in danger. Here there is a greater danger than any other place, because things are more serious here due to the holiness of Eretz Yisroel. They put us in danger by rebelling against the Three Oaths. That’s why the situation in Eretz Yisroel is more dangerous than elsewhere. Only the Torah and mitzvos that Jews keep here provide protection.

As our Sages say, if the gentile nations only knew what benefit the Temple brings them, they would place guards to prevent it from being destroyed. They come to undermine the Torah, unaware that the Torah is protecting them. If they knew, they would give anything to help scholars sit and study. In any case, they are truly endangering us.

I will tell you the truth. You see what happened, G-d spare us, at Yeshiva Merkaz Harav. Why did it happen there, of all places? You'll say, the terrorist just happened to walk in there? Nonsense. There is a message from Heaven here. And why was it religious settlers in particular who were expelled at Gush Katif? Because this whole idea, this worldview that holds this is the redemption, this entire state and all that is in it, is the opposite of our faith and is a violation of the Three Oaths. It’s terrible. And those who keep Torah and mitzvos are held to a higher standard when their worldview is wrong.

Someone came to tell me that they announced the massacre on the radio, and a second later they said, “Now we return to the basketball stadium,” as if nothing happened. The person came to me in a state of shock. “Why are you so shocked?” I asked him. “The leaders here don’t care about anything. For a little glory, they are constantly killing people. Like that wicked man (Ben-Gurion) and the one with the missing eye (Moshe Dayan) made the war in Sinai in order to go down in history. They murder in a terrible way. What copious tears the Satmar Rebbe cried over the blood that was shed! That’s how everything goes. Everything is their personal calculations and they don’t care about anything. They are exactly like the worst of the nations, on the lowest level. It’s terrible! They have taken power here and they do whatever they wish. (Speech given to his students on Monday, March 10, 2008)


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Deliberately poor English isn't enough to hide the fact that your comeback is baseless and a 100% fail.
Why should anyone listen to you? You have zero credibility. All of your threads are useless no one even bother to answer them. This alone should tell much about your credibility on topics and question you raise. Sad state of Affair MR suleiman
 
Indeed, why should people "listen" to me personally, rather than the facts and arguments I muster?
Which hardly carry any substance, right ?

Do you claim that Zionists promote anti-Semitism?
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06/04/08
Do you claim that Zionist leaders promote anti-Semitism throughout the world to “encourage” Jews to leave their homelands and seek "refuge"?

It is dangerous to say things like this because then people may view anti-Semitism as self-inflicted, brought on by the Jew. The mentality will be: Blame the victim, not the perpetrator. For centuries, instigators of anti-Semitism have held Jews accountable for their own heinous crimes due to Jewish financial success and power, and perceived ethnocentricity, all tying into the conceptualization of "the Jewish problem". I don't believe that Israel's leaders intentionally promote anti-Semitism.

I think that Israel hopes more Jews will move there but would do so without dire consequences to Jews (e.g., the Oranim Birthright program sending Jewish students from North America to Israel for free for 10-days).

To conclude that Israeli leaders are purposefully provoking malicious intent toward fellow Jews for Zionist purposes seems a little unbelievable. If your claim is true however, then how do these leaders promote anti-Semitism around the world?

Lisa

Zionists provoke anti-Semitism, whether they want to or not, by maintaining their state, the policies of which offend non-Jews around the world. It offends the Arabs because it's a sovereign "foreign" presence in their part of the world, and because of the expulsion of the Palestinian Arabs. It offends Europeans and Americans because of the constant Zionist activism and political pressure in their countries. America gives $3 billion a year to the State of Israel, almost $20 per taxpayer. Candidates for president are hounded by Zionists to make sure that they are 100% behind Israel and all its policies. This kind of behavior is bound to provoke anti-Semitism.
Once anti-Semitism exists, the Zionists benefit from it in terms of immigration to their state, and they say so themselves. Look at this article on our site.

http://www.truetorahjews.org/aliyah1

In previous generations anti-Semitism was not provoked by the Jews, and we are not giving the impression that it was. We are saying that the way to stop anti-Semitism is through the traditional Jewish methods of prayer, gifts and escape, keeping a low profile, staying within our exilic role. The Zionist method of dealing with anti-Semitism has only aroused more of it, and created it in places where it did not previously exist.

Thank you. I appreciate the clarification and now better understand the perspective of Jews against Zionism. I am presuming that Jews against Zionism do not believe that Jews should have a homeland or maybe it it not the right time for Jews to be back in Israel according to some rabbis. Just a thought.

Yes, that is correct. According to the Talmud, Jews have been in exile since the destruction of the Second Temple and may not have a homeland until the Messiah comes.

Why I am an anti-Zionist Jew
RAY FILAR 29 April 2016
The Israeli government deliberately invokes terrorist attacks, rockets, and scary brown men in headscarfs to stoke the population's fear, but I am scared of the racism Zionists use to justify the occupation. Originally published August 2014.

'Not in our name': members of Jewdas at a Free Palestine demo, 2014. Credit: Ray Filar.

“I was in prison for eleven years,” says Munib, angrily. He explains how his Israeli jailers would make him stand in water: “Up to my neck, for three days”. He gesticulates, showing how he was also electrocuted on the leg, as we drive the narrow road to Bil'in, a tiny Palestinian village south of Jerusalem, next to the separation wall.

I am in the West Bank to understand why everything I have been taught is wrong. Munib is there because – though constantly under attack - Palestine is his home. The facts are casual to him, but they are told with fury.

Later I speak with Ertefaa, a self-deprecating Palestinian woman who works at the refugee centre in Aida camp near Bethlehem, where 5000 Palestinian refugees live in cramped confines: “My husband was in jail twice, six months. My brothers were imprisoned. The brothers of my husband, two brothers, were killed – four months in between both of them. My daughter's husband was also imprisoned.”

As a child I learned that “the Israel/Palestine conflict” is highly complex, with a long history of wrongs on both sides. Growing up as a member of an orthodox synagogue, pro-Israel politics were the norm, and certain kinds of questions frowned upon. Zionists – those who believe Israel should be a Jewish homeland - say it is us vs. them: the victimised Jews against the murderous Arabs. To condemn Israeli human rights abuses is to ignore the Jewish history of persecution that makes the modern Israeli mentality intelligible.

But the reality is much more simple. Today the so-called “Jewish, democratic state” is synonymous with daily brutality, land occupation, militarism, settlements, and dispossession. Though varying forms of Zionist thought exist – each imbues the worthwhile aim of protecting the Jewish people with nationalist imperative. For us to be safe, the thinking goes, we must have our own country. To keep the country safe, we must use force to keep out threats. Because the people living there don't like us pushing them out, they are by definition threatening, and in need of suppression.

Invoking security as the reason to maintain a ethno-religious majority in an area where no such majority exists, Zionists simultaneously dream up a mass of bloodthirsty Palestinian terrorists. But to homogenize all Palestinians is fundamentally racist.
Despite all this, at Sunday morning Hebrew school, Diaspora Jews like me learn to celebrate the 1948 Declaration of Independence, with nothing said about what this meant for the 700,000 Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed or displaced from their homes. I was taught that any criticism of Israel, or of Zionism, means that you want to see Israel destroyed and the Jewish people evicted.

At 19, at the time of a university occupation against Operation Cast Lead, I found out for the first time that many people thought Zionism was wrong, that massacring the people living in Gaza could not be justified as self-defense. I was shocked, then angry, then upset. A combination of revisionist history and group mentality maintains a significant Zionist consensus among Diaspora Jews – we see Palestinians living in poverty, their families killed and their homes destroyed, and are told that this is because Hamas does not care for its own people...unlike Israel.

Operation Protective Edge, in which over 1900 Palestinians and nearly 70 Israelis have now been killed, is just the most recent, inevitable consequence of a brutal, militaristically-advanced settler-colonial occupation encroaching on the lives and lands of a subjugated people – using a 30-foot wall, settlements, missiles, tanks and the withholding of basic human necessities to perpetrate continued domination. This form of militarism is not specific to Israel – theIslamic State, the treatment of Native Americans in the USA, and South African apartheid bear comparison - but that doesn't make it any more defensible.

People arguing in favour of Israel often play on its relative democracy and tolerance, its status as a beacon of enlightenment in the savage east. But Israel today is obsessed with ethnic purity – its more totalitarian policies strategically enacted out of sight of Tel Aviv's bougie bars and beaches.

While in Israel this year I lost count of the number of times I was quizzed as to my religious heritage by random Israelis. The question,“Are you a Jew?” was asked of me more in a month than at any other time in my life. Refusing to answer caused some consternation – and where all interactions are guided by fears of the Palestinian majority, of the loss of “the Jewish democratic state”, I can see why. As a counterpoint I also experimented with purposefully telling Palestinians that I am Jewish, the primary reaction being surprise, then pleasure, and the short response: “welcome”.

In this way Israel is characterized by the twin paranoias of security and ethnicity. The government pretends that ever increasing policing of Palestinian identities is what will eventually lead to Jewish safety – but the continual violent suppression of another group will only cause violent resistance.

The policing is enacted through daily indignities, including restrictions on freedom of movement. Military checkpoints like Qalandia – which guards the route between the West Bank and Jerusalem - exemplify the harsh reality of occupation. With its blackened concrete towers and enclaves of barbed wire, Qalandia is strategically designed to convey a message to Palestinians: you are criminals.

To cross the checkpoint you queue in steel bar enclosed cages barely wide enough for one person to stand, surrounded by rubbish and asinine “keep clean” signs. IDF guards bellow through loudspeakers from behind small, plastic windows: “Israel forever” is graffitied onto one window, next to a Star of David. Travelling to Jerusalem one day on a Palestinian coach, I was surprised when the majority of the people got off the coach and stood outside in a queue, leaving three other non-Palestinians and me.

As a white tourist I was allowed to stay on the coach, treated politely by teenage, machine-gun wielding IDF soldiers, while people in their own country were routinely lined up outside, treated as suspicious terrorist others.

These facts of Palestinian life don't gel with what pro-Israel Diaspora Jews believe about Israelis and Palestinians. Zionist Jews simply do not comprehend that the only people who are in real danger of being made refugees are the Palestinians, that while Israelis stress the abstract right to exist, Palestinians are being killed in their thousands. Like other neoliberal states, Israeli government strategy deliberately plays on the population's existential fear: invoking terrorist attacks, rockets, and frightening brown men in headscarfs. This enables the occupation to entrench itself across land it is not entitled to.

All of this erases an important anti-Zionist Jewish tradition. While today a majority of observing Jews identify with the state of Israel, there is both a growing and visible minority of anti- and non-Zionist Jews, and a rich history of anti-Zionism within Judaism. Political movements like The Jewish Labour Bundand thinkers such as Abraham Serfaty, Emma Goldman and Leon Trotsky are often ignored or dismissed as “self-hating traitors”. In the UK today groups likeJews for Justice for Palestinians, Jewdas, Young Jewish Left and the International Jewish Anti-Zionist network are active voices against the occupation.

In practice Zionism is indistinguishable from the Israeli nationalism that sees the oppression of Palestinians like Ertefaa or Munib as necessary collateral for Jewish survival. Those who support Israel are buying into the idea that Palestinian lives are worth less than those of Jews. A cursory glance at prisoner exchange numbers is demonstrative: in 2011 IDF soldier Gilad Shalit was exchanged for 1027 Palestinians.

This month, hundreds of thousands of people have demonstrated worldwide against the massacre in Gaza. Marching in London with the Jewish bloc has been a powerful experience. Under the banner “not in my name”, we show that Israel does not speak for all Jews.

Some names have been changed.
 
I suppose you think yourself clever for twisting my words. But will doing so reduce the violence and terror plaguing Pakistan by one iota?
I was just wondering,
Why didn't Israel attacked Gaza this year as a tradition which it is full filling from past half decade.
And how many welfare institutes Israel intend to open with 38Billion$ military aid from United States?
I think, ZERO is right answer.
 
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