Our Indian problem in Afghanistan

[Peshwa]

You're making quite a diversion here. Pakistan is going after terrorists that threaten it first, all right? Nothing to do with terrorists killing innocents in US or India.

And it doesn't matter whether they view our intentions suspiciously. Prove what you claim we're doing or GTFO.

Actually it's interesting you brought up WW2. Who did US go after first in WW2? Who did they concentrate most of their power on? Doesn't matter aid or not, we'll go after those who threaten us first, just like any other country would. I am not even gonna bother defending this anymore if you keep coming up with drivel such as we should take American interests into account first.

And how do you know that the Afghan Taliban has not been involved in causing trouble in Pakistan? How are you so sure that they are not a threat or that the TTP and Afg Taliban (aligned in ideology) are not co-ordinating attacks in Pak?...

Anyways...isnt the S.Waziristan operation considered over? I often hear your kind claiming you defeated the Talibs there....
So why the relucatnce to target N.Waziristan now?

Anyways....lets see what transpires....
My bet is you dont touch the Afghan Taliban....but only time will tell.

Let me make it easier for you. You're saying that Pakistan supports Taliban because they're able to make things work between US and Taliban. Well, since by the same token, US also wants to make things work between itself and Taliban, that means US supports Taliban as well.

Let me be very specific. You're implying that Pakistan supports Taliban because it has relations with them. Well, US is also trying to establish relations with them.

Pakistan has struck a deal with TTP in the past, does that mean they're supporting TTP? Yes, I know you're talking about mediating between Haqqanis and US. But what is mediation? It means making things work between the two. Just because we've contacts with taliban, doesn't mean ****. Let me remind you of what david petraeus said: "Having relations with the bad guys helps get the bad guys." Considering that, the model that you're presenting us with is overly simplistic since it does not take into account how things work diplomatically across the world. And really, what patreus said should put an end to your conpiracy theory.

The American would be more than happy to finish the Talibs once and for all...Whats stopping them is the fact that the Taliban reside in your areas and Pakistan provides them shelter by invoking the laws to prevent the US from taking the taliban on in your territories....
Which is why they seek a solution to compromise with the Taliban....to bring an end to the war

If you cant tackle the Taliban because of a glaring economic crisis, floods, no additional resources because of your fixation with India or being preoccupied with the TTP...then whats preventing you from letting America handle their own dirty work?
They are Afghans....so not like Americans are targeting Pakistanis....those areas are not in your control anyways...plus, you yourself claim that Pakistani priorities come first...which happens to be the TTP.

So why the reluctance? Because your country doesnt want to go after them....simple! How many more instances and fake excuses to delay in dealing with the Taliban can you give?

As far as being in touch with the Taliban goes,....there have been rogue elements in your army that sympathize with the Taliban.....how can one be sure that sensitive information about American positions in Afghanistan or plan of attack isnt being shared with the Afghan Taliban? Is Pakistan being a US ally involving the US when making contact with them? and if not, why the need to maintain contact independently?...

And this "theory" as you call it has been verified by Wikileaks....

Here's yet another bharti who has somehow deluded themself into believing that the west believes Pakistan is supporting Taliban. Goodness me, it's never ending.

And what does our past support for taliban imply anything for the present? US supported Mujhaideen in the past, who turned out to be Taliban, so by that logic, US is supporting Taliban.

No, no, no, these are not "well established facts", they are conspiracy theories. You do not need proof to convince yourself actually - any anti-pakistan conspiracy theory is enough for you whether it is proven or not. But you do need proof to have your claim taken more seriously. Because as of now, there's no consensus that Pakistan is supporting Taliban.

the whole world including your own allies have intelligence of your duplicity....the daily reports in the US about whether Pakistan is even a true ally and should the US be funding your economy is a question thats well discussed in the US (In fact there was a report just this morning I was listening to on Fox)
But its the Indians that suffer from delusions and concoct conspiracy theories...LOL!

The isolation Pakistan is in from a world should tell you enough about what the world thinks....dont listen to me....just observe international actions wrt. Pakistan....

Ha!

This is really the biggest illogical piece of garbage I've heard in a while (not accounting from what I hear from desiman).

Let me make it simple from you.

If you accuse me of doing something, but don't provide evidence for your claim, I don't have to provide evidence that your claim is false, you provide evidence that your claim is true.

It's really sad in fact this is what it is coming down to for the so-called logical and rational bharatis. Pakistan should provide evidence that India is supporting TTP, but Pakistan should also provide evidence that it itself is not supporting Taliban. It's really pathetic, and reeks of hypocrisy.

I expected you to be smarter than this....

Your own claims above debunk what you're saying....

You accused Wikileaks as being intelligence collected from "Paid informants"...

Can you prove they were paid? Im not the one accusing the informats of being paid...you are...
The onus is on you to prove that because the informants were paid, that their credibility is diminished...but lets start with some concrete evidence of them being on US payroll.....

Did I anywhere question the authenticity of wikileaks? Did I? You don't quite know about the wikileaks release, do you? Wikileaks is getting data from US government files, US government is getting data from paid afghan informants. So basically, the information is coming from paid Afghan informants, not from US government or from wikileaks. Wikileaks is merely providing what paid Afghan informants are claiming.

and what if they were paid? how does that change the authenticity of the report? Fact remains that informants (paid or otherwise) have revealed Pakistans duplicity in the war....

Now by logic, why would the US pay informants to lie and speak negatively on a "Major Non-NATO ally"?
In fact the US would like not to be embarassed as such and prevent a public backlash at their failed strategy of using Pakistan as an ally....which is why they kept these secret...

So I fail to see the point you're trying to make...

And no, again let me make it clear - wikileaks has not convinced everyone else bharatis have somehow deluded themself into believing that the whole world believes Pakistani government is supporting Taliban.

And here's the interesting part from you. To believe in your conspiracy theory, we have to connect ambiguous, unclear, EXTREMELY circumstancial dots - none of which makes it clear that Pakistan is supporting Taliban.

I dont blame you....nobody wants to hear anything bad about their country....including me....so your behavior is warranted....

But the kind of proof you're looking for...is not privy to me....nor to you....we are here discussing based on the international news and documents that have been released to the public....
So next time making any claims about India...I will expect the same....documented proof the kind you keep talking about here....

Something for you to ponder actually.

US is giving us 1.5 billion aid per year while we allegedly support Taliban. Bush agreed to sell us 76 F-16s despite us allegedly support Taliban. You know Bush was to anyone aggressive against the US. Makes your conspiracy theory sound like an absolute BS. Perhaps you're only choosing to consider the dots that support your conspiracy theroy.

Nope....I have considered this aspect....
and the recent blackmail by cutting off supplies speaks to the vulnerability the US faces in getting their supplies...which maybe a reason for them to make concessions...

Besides...Bush providing you the 76 f-16s was a way to bring you on their side amicably....a decision made in 2005....something that preceeds the recent developments...
So try again...my doubts over Pakistans role in the WOT arent going away anytime soon...but then again...Im Indian...so they should be of little concern to you....

Just hope that the US congress with the Republicans controlling the senate does not decide to reverse its policy towards Pakistan......McCain being an influential senator has made some pretty strong statements recently....Lets see what transpires

 

[Peshwa]

Listen, I know you're replying, but your theories -- conspiracy theories and your connecting the dots part -- is pointless without solid proof. Unless you can back up your claims with solid evidence and not with conspiracy theories -- that too ambiguous theories that don't in no way lead to the conclusion that Pakistan is supporting Taliban as shown above -- then I will not reply to most of your post and only few selective parts.

LOL....

Im here only to provide my POV to the nonsense you guys keep spewing...

Somehow you've mistaken me for someone who cares to get your approval or convince you in any way....Sorry to dissapoint you!

You are free to reply to whatever suits your perspective...

 

[SMC]

I am gonna go over each part of the conspiracy theory really quickly.

And how do you know that the Afghan Taliban has not been involved in causing trouble in Pakistan? How are you so sure that they are not a threat or that the TTP and Afg Taliban (aligned in ideology) are not co-ordinating attacks in Pak?...

Anyways...isnt the S.Waziristan operation considered over? I often hear your kind claiming you defeated the Talibs there....
So why the relucatnce to target N.Waziristan now?

Anyways....lets see what transpires....
My bet is you dont touch the Afghan Taliban....but only time will tell.

How does US know that Al Qaeda targetted it on 9/11? You are not the one to tell us who targets us. We know who is targetting us, and that's TTP. As a result, we'll go after them.

SW is over, however Orakzai operation is still going on. Plus due to the floods and the army being stretched, which everyone including the US knows is a fact and not an excuse, means that we'll not go after them in the next coming months at least.

The American would be more than happy to finish the Talibs once and for all...Whats stopping them is the fact that the Taliban reside in your areas and Pakistan provides them shelter by invoking the laws to prevent the US from taking the taliban on in your territories....
Which is why they seek a solution to compromise with the Taliban....to bring an end to the war

If you cant tackle the Taliban because of a glaring economic crisis, floods, no additional resources because of your fixation with India or being preoccupied with the TTP...then whats preventing you from letting America handle their own dirty work?
They are Afghans....so not like Americans are targeting Pakistanis....those areas are not in your control anyways...plus, you yourself claim that Pakistani priorities come first...which happens to be the TTP.

So why the reluctance? Because your country doesnt want to go after them....simple! How many more instances and fake excuses to delay in dealing with the Taliban can you give?

.

What an oversimplifcation. It's not as simple as going after the extremists in another country, there's more to it. That should be so obvious I will not even bother going more into it.

Fake excuses? HAHAHA! The fact is that army is already overstretched, which may be an excuse to you, but that's the ground reality. I am not gonna bother debating that one.

As far as being in touch with the Taliban goes,....there have been rogue elements in your army that sympathize with the Taliban.....how can one be sure that sensitive information about American positions in Afghanistan or plan of attack isnt being shared with the Afghan Taliban? Is Pakistan being a US ally involving the US when making contact with them? and if not, why the need to maintain contact independently?...

And this "theory" as you call it has been verified by Wikileaks...

No, no, no, it hasn't been verified by wikileaks, and I will discuss that in the part about wikileaks.

As far as your part about how can one be sure about this and that... you are just imagining things here and coming up with BS theories. How can one be sure that India isn't supporting TTP? Unless you have proof to support your assertion, GTFO.

the whole world including your own allies have intelligence of your duplicity....the daily reports in the US about whether Pakistan is even a true ally and should the US be funding your economy is a question thats well discussed in the US (In fact there was a report just this morning I was listening to on Fox)
But its the Indians that suffer from delusions and concoct conspiracy theories...LOL!

No, they don't have any intelligence, and if they have it, they should make it public. As of now, it's all conspiracy theory.

As far as daily reports that you're talking about, obviously you're only selectively choosing the ones that suit your view. So that's basically nothing to argue against since you're showing only one side of the story. Also, what about US government? Not the press, the government.

Now as far as your part about conspiracy theory is concerned, how does all that you said lead to the conclusion that Indians are not making conspiracy theories? Or are you trying to say that parts of the west are also making conspiracy theories? Sure, may be, but it's a conspiracy theory nonetheless.

The isolation Pakistan is in from a world should tell you enough about what the world thinks....dont listen to me....just observe international actions wrt. Pakistan....

Ha!

Isolation?

I know that many Indians have somehow deluded themselves into believing things that aren't true, but this really takes the cake. Pakistan is isolated?

The fact that the west still considers us an important ally and our good relationship with China and Middle Eastern countries really shows how much of a BS your isolation crap is.

I expected you to be smarter than this....

Your own claims above debunk what you're saying....

You accused Wikileaks as being intelligence collected from "Paid informants"...

Can you prove they were paid? Im not the one accusing the informats of being paid...you are...
The onus is on you to prove that because the informants were paid, that their credibility is diminished...but lets start with some concrete evidence of them being on US payroll.....

How ignorant can you be? You talk about wikileaks everywhere but didn't seem to go into the reports. Every article that discussed the wikileaks report said that the info is coming from paid Afghan informants. This is coming right out of the all news articles that discussed the wikileaks leak.

and what if they were paid? how does that change the authenticity of the report? Fact remains that informants (paid or otherwise) have revealed Pakistans duplicity in the war....

Now by logic, why would the US pay informants to lie and speak negatively on a "Major Non-NATO ally"?
In fact the US would like not to be embarassed as such and prevent a public backlash at their failed strategy of using Pakistan as an ally....which is why they kept these secret...

So I fail to see the point you're trying to make...

Paid means they have to create some BS to keep their job, so they will say whatever crap what they want to say. US isn't paying them to lie, they lie themselves because they are Afghans and they see ISI everywhere.

Also, you somehow have got the idea that just because US says something about Pakistan, it automatically makes it true. Doesn't matter if they're an ally or not, they have to prove it.

See, the thing is, you're not providing any proof for your allegations but merely saying that "PROVE THAT MY ALLEGATIONS ARE WRONG!". You seem to have little idea about how convicting someone or proofs work. The Afghan informants have to provide proof for their allegations, not just say that they believe ISI is supporting them. We also have info from within ISI and army that bharat is supporting TTP, yet you probably wouldn't accept that. These Afghan informants have provided no proof except saying "ISI is doing this and that".

You should really look into how convictions, allegations, evidence works and have a good look at the wikileaks leak again before talking about again.

Let me make it clear. Arguments such as "Why would XX lie?", i.e. arguing that the person or group or whatever has no reason to lie doesn't work. Doesn't work, will never work. You can confirm this with Indian members if you want. You have to provide solid evidence, not this rhetorical BS.

I dont blame you....nobody wants to hear anything bad about their country....including me....so your behavior is warranted....

But the kind of proof you're looking for...is not privy to me....nor to you....we are here discussing based on the international news and documents that have been released to the public....
So next time making any claims about India...I will expect the same....documented proof the kind you keep talking about here....

The 'proof' that exists against Pakistan isn't proof, it;s just allegations. Pakistan does this, Pakistan does that. Wikileaks is the same thing. Allegations from paid Afghan informations which have no proof to back them up.

Now as far as claims about India is concerned, I am not claiming anything about India, rather using that as analogy because obviously you don't believe that India is supporting terrorism. Now you say that there is proof required for those allegations against India, which I agree with, but that's exactly what I am trying to say about the allegations against Pakistan! All that we have till now is only allegations, no evidence.

Nope....I have considered this aspect....
and the recent blackmail by cutting off supplies speaks to the vulnerability the US faces in getting their supplies...which maybe a reason for them to make concessions...

Besides...Bush providing you the 76 f-16s was a way to bring you on their side amicably....a decision made in 2005....something that preceeds the recent developments...
So try again...my doubts over Pakistans role in the WOT arent going away anytime soon...but then again...Im Indian...so they should be of little concern to you....

What stops US from invading Pakistan and taking over our country and since they control our country they also take over the supply line? I don't think you're one that can be convinced, and you can keep believing what you want to believe. I am putting the facts out there for others to see just so that they don't get fooled.

---------- Post added at 01:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

LOL....

Im here only to provide my POV to the nonsense you guys keep spewing...

Somehow you've mistaken me for someone who cares to get your approval or convince you in any way....Sorry to dissapoint you!

You are free to reply to whatever suits your perspective...

Nonsense? You have to show how it's nonsense. If anything, what you're saying is nonsense since you keep spewing conspiracy theory that have no evidence backing them up.