Our Indian problem in Afghanistan

[SMC]

Then please explain Pakistan's reluctance to go after the Afghan Taliban in North Waziristan....

Pakistan has to look after its own interests first. Going after Afghan Taliban will unleash far more terrorist attacks than we see today anyway.

Btw, that's an either-or fallacy. You're leaving us with two choices - either Pakistan goes after Taliban and that means it's not supporting Taliban, or Pakistan does not go after Afghan Taliban and that means it's supporting it. What about the third option - it's not going after it and that doesn't mean it's supporting it - since Pakistan also did not go after TTP or BLA for a long time.

Or the fact that Pakistan seems to be the channel to facilitate a deal with the US?

And? By the logic, since US is willing to deal with Taliban, US must be supporting Taliban.

I suppose no proof of "material support" with man and money can probably be found....such proofs are hard to come bye....even for the US....

That's no excuse. I can claim the same for Indian involvement in Pakistan. It doesn't exempt you from finding proof, and it's one reason why these allegations are never taken seriously - even by the west.

But the fact that Afghan Taliban maintains amicable relations with Islamabad is a known fact....no use denying it....in this case support would refer to shelter...which the Taliban is using Pakistani territory....and Pakistans reluctance to go go after them indicates their need to keep them alive...

That's a weak argument. You're saying Pakistan is supporting Taliban because Afghan Taliban are present in Pakistan. By the same logic, Pakistan is also supporting TTP, BLA, LeJ, etc, since they are present in Pakistan. Pakistan has to look after its own interests first anyway when it goes after groups.

And I don't see how it's clear Afghan Taliban has a good relationship with Pakistan. Indians often say that our monster has turned on us - meaning Taliban has turned on us. What you say contradicts that. Even if we had a good relationship with Pakistan, you should still be able to find proof that Taliban is getting support from Pakistan.

You probably should look at some of the findings that Wikileaks came out with.....besides....Its not the Indians blaming you, its your own allies the US that had such documental evidence regarding your relationship....

Let's be clear - it was paid Afghan Informants who made the claims. And they only made claims. By the same logic, since we know PA has claimed that India is supporting TTP, it must be true. There hasn't been any evidence provided to against Pakistan.

And US is not blaming Pakistan, believe it or not. Even if it were, it's not like US saying something makes it true. If you are talking about unnamed CIA sources, then well, unnamed ISI sources also claim that RAW is supporting TTP and BLA. And I am not being sarcastic or joking when I say that - I really am being serious.

 

[SMC]

Btw, it's interesting to note that here you are differentiating between Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban. You say that one of our problems is differentiating between Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban. But since we are going after Pakistani Taliban, and all Taliban are the same, we are going after Taliban - that's if Taliban are indistinct-able. Or do Indians like to make the distinctions when it works in their favour?

 

[Peshwa]

Btw, it's interesting to note that here you are differentiating between Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban. You say that one of our problems is differentiating between Afghan Taliban and Pakistani Taliban. But since we are going after Pakistani Taliban, and all Taliban are the same, we are going after Taliban - that's if Taliban are indistinct-able. Or do Indians like to make the distinctions when it works in their favour?

Did i use the word Good Taliban or bad taliban as many Pakistanis use to differentiate the taliban that seems to be apparently favoring them?

Afghan Taliban is the Taliban thats present and operate in Afghanistan....Pakistani Taliban is the one present and operating in the Pakistani territories....whats so hard to understand there? In fact that is the right naming conventon unlike the "good or bad" attributes you people tend to append....You need to stop finding conspiracies everywhere and try not reading so hard into us "cunning bharatis"...LOL!

According to us, ALL Taliban should be eliminated....not one Indian has supported the ghastly acts of Pakistani Taliban....yet many like yourself would want a full out offensive against the "bad/Pakistani" taliban while look forward to putting the Afghan Taliban back into power (equally bad or worse than TTP ) without once thinking of the poor Afghans...

The highlighted is a trait of the Pakistanis.....read your own previous reply to me while "doing whats in your best interest"

 

[Kinetic]

Its good to see that US and Afghan govt's view doesn't match with the author's!!!!

This is the para related to Afghanistan jointly issued by US and Indian govts....

"The two sides committed to intensify consultation, cooperation and coordination to promote a stable, democratic, prosperous, and independent Afghanistan. President Obama appreciated India's enormous contribution to Afghanistan's development and welcomed enhanced Indian assistance that will help Afghanistan achieve self-sufficiency. In addition to their own independent assistance programs in Afghanistan, the two sides resolved to pursue joint development projects with the Afghan Government in capacity building, agriculture and women's empowerment."

 

[Peshwa]

Pakistan has to look after its own interests first. Going after Afghan Taliban will unleash far more terrorist attacks than we see today anyway.

And you're an ally in the WOT because you would like to see a terrorist free world?...OR is it just a world where there are terrorists who kill innocent people in the US and India..live and plan attacks the world over using Pakistani territory and manpower......just not in Pakistan...

And you wonder why even your own allies in the war view your intentions suspiciously.....

Btw, that's an either-or fallacy. You're leaving us with two choices - either Pakistan goes after Taliban and that means it's not supporting Taliban, or Pakistan does not go after Afghan Taliban and that means it's supporting it. What about the third option - it's not going after it and that doesn't mean it's supporting it - since Pakistan also did not go after TTP or BLA for a long time.

Because by being an ally in the WOT, your country has chosen to be aligned against the Taliban....Afghani and Pakistani

Its like the allies in WW2 nitpicking on who they will fight depending on whether the they had any personal beef with Hitler.....

Which part of the "WOT Ally" or the 2 billion in military aid you are receiving from the US makes it hard for you to fathom the camp you belong to?

And? By the logic, since US is willing to deal with Taliban, US must be supporting Taliban.

For all the illogical asinine reasoning you've been throwing around....this one is the worst....

Pakistan has been asked to mediate between the Afghans and the Taliban at the behest of the US.....so obviously this indicates that the Pakistanis share amicable relations with the Taliban does it not?

When your country asks US to mediate on Kashmir, is it doing so because they think US and India are on opposite side of the spectrum? Does one make concessions at the behest of an enemy?

So what else have I said that makes it so confusing for you?

That's no excuse. I can claim the same for Indian involvement in Pakistan. It doesn't exempt you from finding proof, and it's one reason why these allegations are never taken seriously - even by the west.

One cannot deny that Pakistan along with SA and UAE were the only countries to recognize the Taliban.....
It is well established fact that Pakistan has a stake in the return of the Taliban....
We dont need proof, its a known fact even to your allies....

That's a weak argument. You're saying Pakistan is supporting Taliban because Afghan Taliban are present in Pakistan. By the same logic, Pakistan is also supporting TTP, BLA, LeJ, etc, since they are present in Pakistan. Pakistan has to look after its own interests first anyway when it goes after groups.

And I don't see how it's clear Afghan Taliban has a good relationship with Pakistan. Indians often say that our monster has turned on us - meaning Taliban has turned on us. What you say contradicts that. Even if we had a good relationship with Pakistan, you should still be able to find proof that Taliban is getting support from Pakistan.

No I claim that the Afghan Taliban are being sheltered by Pakistan...which is as good as showing support in the current scenario....
The claim of support is made stronger by the fact that you go after the Pakistani TTP (Taliban) who also share the territory....while singling out the Afghan Taliban....its not that hard to make sense of this.....you're trying to lag behind because you choose to...

By your own admission, you claim that TTP has targeted Pakistanis....the Afghan Taliban has not....but the point Im trying to make is....the Taliban should be treated as an ideology not a people....one that needs only a power vaccum to accumulate clout...

At this point Pakstanis are happy to see NATO leave Afg (if they ever do)....but god forbid if they stay longer or if Kabul finds a strong, honest leader....expect the new Afganistan to be in your own backyards of KP and Balochistan....

Harboring the Taliban will have its consequences....whether delivered by the west or by the Taliban themselves...

Let's be clear - it was paid Afghan Informants who made the claims. And they only made claims. By the same logic, since we know PA has claimed that India is supporting TTP, it must be true. There hasn't been any evidence provided to against Pakistan.

LOL....all this jack sh!t about "proof" and you go ahead and make a baseless proof about paid informants....

Please ill have to see some PROOF here.....and I mean physical hard evidence like ledgers or receipts or some sort of photo evidence indicating the Afghans being paid to slander.....thank you very much!

And US is not blaming Pakistan, believe it or not. Even if it were, it's not like US saying something makes it true. If you are talking about unnamed CIA sources, then well, unnamed ISI sources also claim that RAW is supporting TTP and BLA. And I am not being sarcastic or joking when I say that - I really am being serious.

Well....lets see....Wikileaks has as much dirt on the US as it has on Pakistan....
I can see if you argue that had US made these statements, that it was biased or based on ulterior motives....
but in this case, this was top secret files being protected by the US to prevent humiliation for itself and its allies.....leaked by a defecting individual....he has no stake in Pakistan...

Again....you dont have to be a genius to connect the dots....but lets leave it here....since
Wikileaks doesnt have to convince the Pakistanis....it just has to convince EVERYONE ELSE...which sadly dost it has already...LOL!

You can come talk to me about TTP RAW connection when the US which has a stake in both Pak and India at the moment has secret WikiLeaks reports that state such a connection....trust, me....if the connection existed....US would not try to look like a fool in front of its public by keeping war documents indicating its poor record in war, its wayward ally its been paying up...but fail to report on the Indians who've been stealing american jobs while also hurting the efforts in the WOT!...give me a break

 

[indushek]

The claim about Pakistan supporting Taliban doesn't have any serious proof to it. The so-called logical and rational Indians should take that into account before blaming Pakistan, because the hypocrisy becomes clear when on one hand they demand proof for Indian involvement but blindly accept what is told when Pakistan involvement is concerned.

You are directly contradicting Taimi's post above. Please look at his post.

 

[TaimiKhan]

You are directly contradicting Taimi's post above. Please look at his post.

Well, my word is not God's word, even Pakistani members can contradict it and have different opinion.

 

[indushek]

In the eye of the beholder - see, to get a good sense, we should be mindful of the context, don't you think? I met this Afghan gentlemen, he was a certified Bin Laden hunter and an all round nice guy - and he told me about what life under the Mujaideen govt was like in kabul - now recall that at that time govt was Ahmad Shah's militia under the political cover of Rabbani's Jamiaat, in additon, other Mujahideen groups controlled various sections of Kabul - so according to this gentlemen, uncertainty was such that each group of the Mujahideen ripped the citizen off at the check points they controlled and he thought thatthe Talib were most welcome -- but as the Talib fought with the forces of Massoud, they also became crazier and crazier, that they had no idea of governance and were peasants who wanted only to kill their enemies -- and the enemies lists grew - you will recall the idiots enforcement of prayers and all that, basically a Saudi Arabia in the Hindu Kush.

On the other hand, All of Afghanistan is not Kabul, in fact the cities are not representative of Afghanistan, the villages are and there the Talib attitudes and enforced public piety were not regarded in the same negative light as in the city of Kabul.

The Northern Alliance fighters certainly hate the Talib, Pashtun Liberals (read communists) certainly hate them, Tajik, Uzbek and Hazara populations certainly see the Talib as representatives of Pashtun in the civil war, as nothing less than hateful -- Talib support is by and large among the Pashtun peasantry, in the villages.

As for the view of the Talib, I think it's fair to say that they are now primarily motivated by the idea that they must expel the Firengi, the Angraiz -- I don't think that the same anti Tajik sentiment is at work, they still despise the Tajik and do not accept them as Afghan, but I don't think they entertain notions as they did before, that Tajiks must return to Tajikistan.

So, I hope the picture you are developing is one in which the context of the Civil war and Anarchy and Massacres, a Hobbesian nightmare informs the relations between the groups -- On the other hand, I can tell you first hand that I have also witnessed that people live entirely peaceful lives with different ethnicities -- so, it is most certainly complex.


Now, as to your point about dangerous, well, yes, I don't think Pakistan ought to trust the US to be mindful of Pakistani interests, is that dangerous? sure, but it's Afghanistan, everything is dangerous because the US finds it's interest best served by promoting instability -- some will find this hard to believe - but I would ask that observers be fair, it's going on 10 years, please do point to what the US has done to effect stability, or to promote the idea that Afghanistan cannot but have peaceful relations with her neighbors -- is 10 years some small amount of time??

Thanks for the elaborate reply muse. So the Afghani side is a mixed bag of various emotions as i understand from your explanation. I think continuous war has made things miserable for them.

Regarding the game afoot i am not at all saying that it is wrong, every country has to act in its own interests. Its just that sometimes we win sometimes we loose. Thanks for your energetic replies once again.

 

[indushek]

Well, my word is not God's word, even Pakistani members can contradict it and have different opinion.

I never said so, i was just pointing out the difference in opinions every where.

 

[indushek]

afghans themselves are divided on such issues; though it seems that from 2001 till today, taleban popularity and influence declined manifold, then began to rise up again among Afghans in past 2-3 years


as for duplicity which someone mentioned earlier; important to distinguish between Afghan taleban and Pakistan taleban. There is a difference; a huge one --though most, if not all groups, are opposed to foreign military presence in the Afghanistan (as many of such groups were against soviets)

Well i think the point is self explanatory Abu as far as my knowledge goes the Afghan's are fierce fighting race from ages. They have never bowed down to foreign rule. The largest empire of the British themselves had to return with bruises and shame from this country twice!!!

The point of popularity is explained by this because the rest of the Afghani under the tortuous rule of taliban were first happy to get rid of them but again are growing restless with the presence of the firangi and want to get rid of them!!! Afghanistan is really a mixed bag.

The duplicity part i mentioned was vis a vis America and other international audience. One has to do what is beneficial to him, and i agree from ur POV it is important to distinguish them. However i think others (and by this i mean the international audience) may not agree with this.

 

[MYSTIC]

Both India and Pakistan need to end this proxy war against each other more greater good of the people of South Asia. Once the US exits Afghanistan both India and Pakistan need to work together to uproot both the TTP and Afghan Taliban from the subcontinent. If not I can never see peace between the two countries.

 

[SMC]

And you're an ally in the WOT because you would like to see a terrorist free world?...OR is it just a world where there are terrorists who kill innocent people in the US and India..live and plan attacks the world over using Pakistani territory and manpower......just not in Pakistan...

And you wonder why even your own allies in the war view your intentions suspiciously.....

You're making quite a diversion here. Pakistan is going after terrorists that threaten it first, all right? Nothing to do with terrorists killing innocents in US or India.

And it doesn't matter whether they view our intentions suspiciously. Prove what you claim we're doing or GTFO.

Because by being an ally in the WOT, your country has chosen to be aligned against the Taliban....Afghani and Pakistani

Its like the allies in WW2 nitpicking on who they will fight depending on whether the they had any personal beef with Hitler.....

Which part of the "WOT Ally" or the 2 billion in military aid you are receiving from the US makes it hard for you to fathom the camp you belong to?

Actually it's interesting you brought up WW2. Who did US go after first in WW2? Who did they concentrate most of their power on? Doesn't matter aid or not, we'll go after those who threaten us first, just like any other country would. I am not even gonna bother defending this anymore if you keep coming up with drivel such as we should take American interests into account first.

For all the illogical asinine reasoning you've been throwing around....this one is the worst....

Pakistan has been asked to mediate between the Afghans and the Taliban at the behest of the US.....so obviously this indicates that the Pakistanis share amicable relations with the Taliban does it not?

When your country asks US to mediate on Kashmir, is it doing so because they think US and India are on opposite side of the spectrum? Does one make concessions at the behest of an enemy?

So what else have I said that makes it so confusing for you?

Let me make it easier for you. You're saying that Pakistan supports Taliban because they're able to make things work between US and Taliban. Well, since by the same token, US also wants to make things work between itself and Taliban, that means US supports Taliban as well.

Let me be very specific. You're implying that Pakistan supports Taliban because it has relations with them. Well, US is also trying to establish relations with them.

Pakistan has struck a deal with TTP in the past, does that mean they're supporting TTP? Yes, I know you're talking about mediating between Haqqanis and US. But what is mediation? It means making things work between the two. Just because we've contacts with taliban, doesn't mean ****. Let me remind you of what david petraeus said: "Having relations with the bad guys helps get the bad guys." Considering that, the model that you're presenting us with is overly simplistic since it does not take into account how things work diplomatically across the world. And really, what patreus said should put an end to your conpiracy theory.

One cannot deny that Pakistan along with SA and UAE were the only countries to recognize the Taliban.....
It is well established fact that Pakistan has a stake in the return of the Taliban....
We dont need proof, its a known fact even to your allies....

Here's yet another bharti who has somehow deluded themself into believing that the west believes Pakistan is supporting Taliban. Goodness me, it's never ending.

And what does our past support for taliban imply anything for the present? US supported Mujhaideen in the past, who turned out to be Taliban, so by that logic, US is supporting Taliban.

No, no, no, these are not "well established facts", they are conspiracy theories. You do not need proof to convince yourself actually - any anti-pakistan conspiracy theory is enough for you whether it is proven or not. But you do need proof to have your claim taken more seriously. Because as of now, there's no consensus that Pakistan is supporting Taliban.

No I claim that the Afghan Taliban are being sheltered by Pakistan...which is as good as showing support in the current scenario....
The claim of support is made stronger by the fact that you go after the Pakistani TTP (Taliban) who also share the territory....while singling out the Afghan Taliban....its not that hard to make sense of this.....you're trying to lag behind because you choose to...

They are being sheltered? The fact that the army and ISI allow drone attacks and provide intelligence for drone attacks suggests otherwise. Really, I don't see how they are being sheltered. Not going after them does not automatically imply one is sheltering them. US and Afghan troops ignored TTP hiding in Afghanistan for a long time. I am sure you'd agree they were not supporting TTP.

As far as going after TTP is concerned, I've already said it a million times now as to why we go after them.

By your own admission, you claim that TTP has targeted Pakistanis....the Afghan Taliban has not....but the point Im trying to make is....the Taliban should be treated as an ideology not a people....one that needs only a power vaccum to accumulate clout...

Going to repeat the same thing again - TTP is our main concern ATM. If you want us to take your and US interests into account, no. And no, that doesn't make your conspiracy theory true.

At this point Pakstanis are happy to see NATO leave Afg (if they ever do)....but god forbid if they stay longer or if Kabul finds a strong, honest leader....expect the new Afganistan to be in your own backyards of KP and Balochistan....

Harboring the Taliban will have its consequences....whether delivered by the west or by the Taliban themselves...

Ok... well I am talking about support for Taliban.

LOL....all this jack sh!t about "proof" and you go ahead and make a baseless proof about paid informants....

Please ill have to see some PROOF here.....and I mean physical hard evidence like ledgers or receipts or some sort of photo evidence indicating the Afghans being paid to slander.....thank you very much!

This is really the biggest illogical piece of garbage I've heard in a while (not accounting from what I hear from desiman).

Let me make it simple from you. If you accuse me of doing something, but don't provide evidence for your claim, I don't have to provide evidence that your claim is false, you provide evidence that your claim is true.

It's really sad in fact this is what it is coming down to for the so-called logical and rational bharatis. Pakistan should provide evidence that India is supporting TTP, but Pakistan should also provide evidence that it itself is not supporting Taliban. It's really pathetic, and reeks of hypocrisy.

Well....lets see....Wikileaks has as much dirt on the US as it has on Pakistan....
I can see if you argue that had US made these statements, that it was biased or based on ulterior motives....
but in this case, this was top secret files being protected by the US to prevent humiliation for itself and its allies.....leaked by a defecting individual....he has no stake in Pakistan...

Again....you dont have to be a genius to connect the dots....but lets leave it here....since
Wikileaks doesnt have to convince the Pakistanis....it just has to convince EVERYONE ELSE...which sadly dost it has already...LOL!

Did I anywhere question the authenticity of wikileaks? Did I? You don't quite know about the wikileaks release, do you? Wikileaks is getting data from US government files, US government is getting data from paid afghan informants. So basically, the information is coming from paid Afghan informants, not from US government or from wikileaks. Wikileaks is merely providing what paid Afghan informants are claiming.

And no, again let me make it clear - wikileaks has not convinced everyone else bharatis have somehow deluded themself into believing that the whole world believes Pakistani government is supporting Taliban.

And here's the interesting part from you. To believe in your conspiracy theory, we have to connect ambiguous, unclear, EXTREMELY circumstancial dots - none of which makes it clear that Pakistan is supporting Taliban.

It's quite a day when those who complain about conspiracy theories become conspiracy theorists themselves.

Something for you to ponder actually.

US is giving us 1.5 billion aid per year while we allegedly support Taliban. Bush agreed to sell us 76 F-16s despite us allegedly support Taliban. You know Bush was to anyone aggressive against the US. Makes your conspiracy theory sound like an absolute BS. Perhaps you're only choosing to consider the dots that support your conspiracy theroy.

 

[SMC]

Listen, I know you're replying, but your theories -- conspiracy theories and your connecting the dots part -- is pointless without solid proof. Unless you can back up your claims with solid evidence and not with conspiracy theories -- that too ambiguous theories that don't in no way lead to the conclusion that Pakistan is supporting Taliban as shown above -- then I will not reply to most of your post and only few selective parts.

 

[DesiGuy]

Our Pakistan problem in Afghanistan!

 

[SMC]

You are directly contradicting Taimi's post above. Please look at his post.

Any person has a right to believe what they want to believe. However Indian members in the past have shown the tendency to say that they put evidence and logic before conspiracy theories and personal beliefs.