New Delhi Finally Submits To Kayani, Pasha

[RoYaL~GuJJaR]

Good move! We should have done it before..! Just talk with real policy maker's.

 

[fatman17]

I really don't understand this argument - if the civilian leadership is indeed as powerless as claimed, then they will not advance any position during negotiations that is not approved by the Army to begin with, and the Army will certainly have its own experts and advisers assisting the government to ensure that the talks go in the direction the Army wants.

So what sense does 'engaging with the Army and intelligence' make, since they are 'all powerful' to begin with?

IMO this is either speculative journalism or just an attempt to malign Pakistan and the Army by implying that the Army controls everything and therefore also possibly making Indians believe that the negotiations with the civilian government are pointless, and therefore give themselves an excuse to break off negotiations if they feel like it.

i think mil-to-mil discussions are very important - the two chiefs can meet to set the 'agenda' for their talks - old-age mindsets and mis-conceptions exist between the two militaries. at the initial stage i would not discuss 'political' issues but build mil-to-mil CBM's. as an example, the militaries (read MSA) would agree not to 'arrest & impound' each other's fishermen in tit-for-tat knee-jerk reactions. these fishing boats dont have radar so they dont know where they are - it is these such instances which create un-necessary tensions between the two countries. the military think-tanks can discuss various military related issues by exchanging mid-level officer-students to their NDU's. these exchanges will break old & build new relations between the two militaries. this can ultimately move to resolve such issues like Siachen and Sir Creek which BTW are 'held up' by the 'positions' held by the two militaries - the political 'will' exists but not the military 'will'.

PS; a thread already exists in the army section - pls merge!

 

[Laughing_soldier]

Good move by GOI, but before opening communication channels with the Pakistan military GOI should show genuineness of its intentions by taking some solid confidence building measures, which should atleast include

good move true but peace is equally not more important for pakistan. why so many precaution needed by india? india will lose many advantages it has like siachen. why india will do that? is not your proposal like you gain everything you want before talks.

1. Total withrawl of all Indian millitary from Siachen to pre 1980 positions

talks going on. pakistan should go to such position that they cannot suddenly occupy siachen.

2. Immediate and total stopage of all support to terrorists and terrorist activities in Baluchistan.

there is no terrorist activities done by india in baluchistan. this question will be used if pakistan do not want any agreement.

3. share complete information about the Baluch terrorsits trained and financed by GOI and Raw

same as above. this mean pakistan do not want to talk.

4. Immediate closure of all Indian consulates in Afghanistan and Iran encircling Pakistan.

this is matter of india, iran and afghanistan. talk with iran and afghanistan if you want to close them. india do not have consulates without their approval.

5. Reduction in Paramillitary forces in Kashmir

not possible as of now. we know why paramilitary is in kashmir since early 90s.

6. Agree to discuss and resolve Kashmir problem according to half century old UN resolutions.

half century old UN resolution? if UN can not force it on India why India will accept it by itself? this is 2011 not 1940s.

7. Reduction in massive build up of war machinery / slow down arms race in the region.

what arms race are you talking about? india has gdp ten times more than pakistan. massive arms build up is accordance with india's capability. if you want to join so called race than you are welcome.

8. Stop oppositin of "Favourite Status" by EU to help Pakistan overcome Quake/flood devastation.

india has done nothing against such favourite status.

you have left 9th point. give kashmir to pakistan.

Unless these steps are taken the communicatin channel is not going to be more than tea/dinner gatherings.

this list is made to destroy the talk you now that. india is good with current status quo. it will be good for pakistan if we move.

 

[Laughing_soldier]

i think mil-to-mil discussions are very important - the two chiefs can meet to set the 'agenda' for their talks - old-age mindsets and mis-conceptions exist between the two militaries. at the initial stage i would not discuss 'political' issues but build mil-to-mil CBM's. as an example, the militaries (read MSA) would agree not to 'arrest & impound' each other's fishermen in tit-for-tat knee-jerk reactions. these fishing boats dont have radar so they dont know where they are - it is these such instances which create un-necessary tensions between the two countries. the military think-tanks can discuss various military related issues by exchanging mid-level officer-students to their NDU's. these exchanges will break old & build new relations between the two militaries. this can ultimately move to resolve such issues like Siachen and Sir Creek which BTW are 'held up' by the 'positions' held by the two militaries - the political 'will' exists but not the military 'will'.

PS; a thread already exists in the army section - pls merge!

talk from indian side will be done by civilian leaders only. no and never involvement of military. no one even the indian military will not agree with this. military is only for defence of the nation not the job of govt.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

Good move by GOI, but before opening communication channels with the Pakistan military GOI should show genuineness of its intentions by taking some solid confidence building measures, which should atleast include

1. Total withrawl of all Indian millitary from Siachen to pre 1980 positions
Mutual de-militarization might be possible but no single sided withdrawal
2. Immediate and total stopage of all support to terrorists and terrorist activities in Baluchistan.
Prove this in the U.N.Otherwise it's pure BS
3. share complete information about the Baluch terrorsits trained and financed by GOI and Raw
Prove that India is involved in this otherwise it's a lie
4. Immediate closure of all Indian consulates in Afghanistan and Iran encircling Pakistan.
Not possible
5. Reduction in Paramillitary forces in Kashmir
Stop sending Kasab's colleagues to wage a proxy war and murdering Indians in Kashmir
6. Agree to discuss and resolve Kashmir problem according to half century old UN resolutions.
The dialogue process is proceeding as now our leaders have realized the importance of your Army and ISI and are trying to engage with them
7. Reduction in massive build up of war machinery / slow down arms race in the region.
If you want to participate in the "RACE" then be our guests but we just want to concentrate on our Economy
8. Stop oppositin of "Favourite Status" by EU to help Pakistan overcome Quake/flood devastation.
Impossible!!Our exporters will suffer if we do this!

Unless these steps are taken the communicatin channel is not going to be more than tea/dinner gatherings.

My answers in blue

 

[fatman17]

talk from indian side will be done by civilian leaders only. no and never involvement of military. no one even the indian military will not agree with this. military is only for defence of the nation not the job of govt.

suggest u 'read' the thread title/header again!

 

[Laughing_soldier]

suggest u 'read' the thread title/header again!

i have read it. its from ahmed qureshi who posts such fancy heading. lol this news is old.

india is ready to talk with pakistan army. 'india' is civilian govt of india , not military. indian military will be never involved any any stage of talks. be practical. military from india in talks is not possible. this is against law of india and constitution which gives ultimate power to representative of people.

 

[WHITESMOKE]

To be honest i dont see any "fruits" coming out of these talks... even if its military/ISI or govt of Pak... I mean we already have hundreds of rounds of talk... and the results are open to everyone. May be the final solution will come out around 2020-2025 when Indian economy would be 4-5 trillion dollars or may be much more. You all know what i mean...

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

i have read it. its from ahmed qureshi who posts such fancy heading. lol this news is old.

india is ready to talk with pakistan army. 'india' is civilian govt of india , not military. indian military will be never involved any any stage of talks. be practical. military from india in talks is not possible. this is against law of india and constitution which gives ultimate power to representative of people.

Bro they should engage with our Armed Forces..................But they have to revise their strategy each year as each year,the chief's retire.We must try to get our current GDP up to 4trillion$ as WhiteSmoke said then we will have the edge of manipulating the Pakistani establishment(Ala US).

 

[Omar1984]

I think the whole purpose of India is to "let us stay in Afghanistan after ISAF leaves, and to find out a settlement on Kashmir"

I agree with the first part of your statement but not the second part. India knows Pakistan has more control over Afghanistan's future than any other country on earth and they want to stay in Afghanistan thats why they want talks with Pasha and Kayani, but they are forgetting that Kayani and Pasha are not stupid like Gilani and Zardari.

As for Kashmir, India will never try to solve it. They are happy with the status quo, but we Pakistanis and Kashmiris are not happy with the status quo of Kashmir.

 

[desioptimist]

I agree with the first part of your statement but not the second part. India knows Pakistan has more control over Afghanistan's future than any other country on earth and they want to stay in Afghanistan thats why they want talks with Pasha and Kayani, but they are forgetting that Kayani and Pasha are not stupid like Gilani and Zardari.

As for Kashmir, India will never try to solve it. They are happy with the status quo, but we Pakistanis and Kashmiris are not happy with the status quo of Kashmir.

Whether you will stay in afganistan will depend on afgans first.
And I agree that status quo suits us. That should be kept in mind while negotiating from pakistani side.

About talking to army, I think it is a good idea. We have, for far too long, being indecisive on this issue. US secretary of state meets COAS of pak directly. The argument on Indian side is, it will undermine civilian position in pakistan, which we are ideologically against. Secondly, protocol wise, our civilian govt cant talk to their army. And our army talking to their army does not make any sense.

However, we can always have back channel diplomacy. We can always secretly talk to them, and gain their confidence and consent. They should not feel left out in an agreement( otherwise it is natural they will try to veto or sabotage such process)

Else, we will have to wait for another coup.

 

[sanibhagwan]

Good move by GOI, but before opening communication channels with the Pakistan military GOI should show genuineness of its intentions by taking some solid confidence building measures, which should atleast include

1. Total withrawl of all Indian millitary from Siachen to pre 1980 positions
2. Immediate and total stopage of all support to terrorists and terrorist activities in Baluchistan.
3. share complete information about the Baluch terrorsits trained and financed by GOI and Raw
4. Immediate closure of all Indian consulates in Afghanistan and Iran encircling Pakistan.
5. Reduction in Paramillitary forces in Kashmir
6. Agree to discuss and resolve Kashmir problem according to half century old UN resolutions.
7. Reduction in massive build up of war machinery / slow down arms race in the region.
8. Stop oppositin of "Favourite Status" by EU to help Pakistan overcome Quake/flood devastation.

Unless these steps are taken the communicatin channel is not going to be more than tea/dinner gatherings.

but before opening communication channels with the Pakistan military GOI should show genuineness of its intentions by taking some solid confidence building measures, which should atleast include

Great. Similarly, please list out what GOP could do to show genuineness of its intentions.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Hahaha.. You are not in a position to demand any of that my friend. A country on the verge of failure and epicenter of terrorism cannot dictate terms to the second fastest 10% growing economy of the world. Be reasonable and practical

Why don't you give this intelligent advice to GOI that India should just wait a let Pakistan fail rather than open communication channels with Pak millitary..........................may be GOI got tired of waiting for the last 60 years.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Great. Similarly, please list out what GOP could do to show genuineness of its intentions.

Who is trying to open the communication channels here? first moves should come from India, and Pakistan will reciprocate accordingly.

 

[Lord Of Gondor]

first moves should come from India.

Why is that?We are doing more to continue the peace process than you are!The instigation's to further the peace process are from our side and our Prime Minister Mr.Manmohan Singh had said that we were willing to go more than half way to meet the Pakistanis.