New Delhi Finally Submits To Kayani, Pasha

[mikkix]

New Delhi Finally Submits To Kayani, Pasha

Wants To Open Talks With Pakistan Army Chief And The Spy Boss

AJAY MEHTA | Tuesday | 29 March 2011 | DailyMailNews.com

NEW DELHI – India has asked its envoy in Pakistan to open channels of communication with Pakistan Army Chief General Pervez Kayani as well as ISI chief Shuja Pasha, which, if the two agree, could open up new possibilities of engagement between Pakistan and India.

“We have given the green signal,” an Indian government source confirms. As new efforts are launched for Pak-Indian talks, there is realization in the Indian capital that its efforts to talk are incomplete because there is no communication with the Pakistan Army — effectively the real power center.

The Indian diplomatic outreach to General Kayani is under the rubric of engaging all stakeholders, an approach that won’t attract extra attention, Indian officials hope. However, Kayani is yet to respond to Indian overtures.

Pakistani PM Yusuf Raza Gilani has accepted Manmohan Singh’s invitation to attend the World Cup cricket semi-final match in Mohali this week. While the event is not expected to significantly alter bilateral ties, it may clear the air.

India remains hesitant about including the Pakistani Army Chief in the official dialogue.

In 2009, ISI chief General Ahmed Shuja Pasha attended an Iftar dinner at the residence of Indian envoy to Pakistan Sharat Sabharwal, which was seen to herald some kind of a thaw.

Earlier, too, India showed interest in engaging the Pakistani Army Chief, but to little avail. The Pakistani Army Chief leads the strategic dialogue process with the US, which includes both civilian and military components. But India remains wedded to the civilian establishment. Kayani is a different kettle of fish. His earlier statements on Indian threat projections and the centrality of those projections in Pakistani military preparedness have shown him to be bold when it comes to Pakistan’s India policy.

 

[angeldemon_007]

^^^
We should have done this before....there's no point talking those powerless people in Islamabad....

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^^^
We should have done this before....there's no point talking those powerless people in Islamabad....

I really don't understand this argument - if the civilian leadership is indeed as powerless as claimed, then they will not advance any position during negotiations that is not approved by the Army to begin with, and the Army will certainly have its own experts and advisers assisting the government to ensure that the talks go in the direction the Army wants.

So what sense does 'engaging with the Army and intelligence' make, since they are 'all powerful' to begin with?

IMO this is either speculative journalism or just an attempt to malign Pakistan and the Army by implying that the Army controls everything and therefore also possibly making Indians believe that the negotiations with the civilian government are pointless, and therefore give themselves an excuse to break off negotiations if they feel like it.

 

[mikkix]

^^^
We should have done this before....there's no point talking those powerless people in Islamabad....

Yeah we all know how your establishment malign your MMS when arriving from Sharm El Shaikh.

In pakistan the situation is not normal, we are in a war.
Like the oldest democracy called US, The CIA chief, Admiral MuLLen, NAto chief come to Pakistan for talks. Why there establishment deals behalf of OBama???

 

[mikkix]

I really don't understand this argument - if the civilian leadership is indeed as powerless as claimed, then they will not advance any position during negotiations that is not approved by the Army to begin with, and the Army will certainly have its own experts and advisers assisting the government to ensure that the talks go in the direction the Army wants.

So what sense does 'engaging with the Army and intelligence' make, since they are 'all powerful' to begin with?

IMO this is either speculative journalism or just an attempt to malign Pakistan and the Army by implying that the Army controls everything and therefore also possibly making Indians believe that the negotiations with the civilian government are pointless, and therefore give themselves an excuse to break off negotiations if they feel like it.

I dont think its maligning pakistan, b/c they really need to collaborate with ISI in afghanistan, otherwise situation will become worse for...

 

[angeldemon_007]

I dont think its maligning pakistan, b/c they really need to collaborate with ISI in afghanistan, otherwise situation will become worse for...

No actually, then ISI will make sure that situation becomes worse....

IMO this is either speculative journalism or just an attempt to malign Pakistan and the Army by implying that the Army controls everything

No actually its true....even your media reported it...our ambassador officially met personnel of your armed forces to confirm this....Also GOI officially declared it that they will now also include military leadership of Pakistan...

just an attempt to malign Pakistan and the Army by implying that the Army controls everything and therefore also possibly making Indians believe that the negotiations with the civilian government are pointless

If you think this then, i think its just you who believes that Pakistan is ruled by Islamabad while its not true....this is the reason why US has directly made contact with military leadership...
Negotiations with civilian government is pointless....we have all seen this...

therefore give themselves an excuse to break off negotiations if they feel like it.

Everytime the negotiations were ever broken in the past, it was because of terrorist attack with full backing from your army and ISI....IMO GOI is fed up with this proxy war...and hence they has decided to rope in armed forces of paksitan...no more innocent deaths....

 

[Omar1984]

What does India expect to get from Pakistan Army and Pakistan ISI. The ISI and the army of Pakistan are more anti-india than the PPP puppets.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No actually its true....even your media reported it...our ambassador officially met personnel of your armed forces to confirm this....Also GOI officially declared it that they will now also include military leadership of Pakistan...

Meeting with military leadership does not negate the arguments I made. If the military is as powerful as is being claimed, then the civilian government will pursue negotiations based on what the military wants in any case, which means that 'direct contacts with the military' is a redundant exercise.

If you think this then, i think its just you who believes that Pakistan is ruled by Islamabad while its not true....this is the reason why US has directly made contact with military leadership...
Negotiations with civilian government is pointless....we have all seen this...

This is a separate discussion - my point is that made above.

Everytime the negotiations were ever broken in the past, it was because of terrorist attack with full backing from your army and ISI....IMO GOI is fed up with this proxy war...and hence they has decided to rope in armed forces of paksitan...no more innocent deaths....

That is a speculative and unsubstantiated allegation. The back channel dialog between India and Pakistan during Musharraf's tenure was in fact broken before the Mumbai attacks by India, because of political turmoil in Pakistan, and the process was backed by Kiyani and the other military leadership under Musharraf.

 

[perplexed]

^^ Its time to talk to the masters of pakistan rather then their puppets on a tight leash.

 

[JayAtl]

I really don't understand this argument - if the civilian leadership is indeed as powerless as claimed, then they will not advance any position during negotiations that is not approved by the Army to begin with, and the Army will certainly have its own experts and advisers assisting the government to ensure that the talks go in the direction the Army wants.

So what sense does 'engaging with the Army and intelligence' make, since they are 'all powerful' to begin with?

IMO this is either speculative journalism or just an attempt to malign Pakistan and the Army by implying that the Army controls everything and therefore also possibly making Indians believe that the negotiations with the civilian government are pointless, and therefore give themselves an excuse to break off negotiations if they feel like it.

this is not an " Indian opinion only" that the real powers in Pakistan to get anything done in terms of the two countries is the Pak army and ISI. After all did your president not get slapped down by those two entities from sending the ISI chief to India post 26/11? can you imagine that happening in the US or India where the civilian leadership would order the military leadership to do it and they would refuse? ...

when it comes to the two countries- it's well documented by statements by world leaders, experts etc worldwide- that the Pak army and ISI are the hurdles. even musharaff had submitted that after the Agra summit.

if you Pakistanis have a problem with that claim , then tell us why every article written about how close pak-India came to a solution always had the caveat that it needed to be sold to the army and ISI?

logically speaking- wouldn't India prefer not to deal with your military leadership and rather prefer to deal with a civilian head? do you see any joy in having to talk to those bodies? why bring in more into the pot to get an agreement- this is 1 o 1 of diplomacy i.e.keep it strictly to key players and decision makers.

 

[53fd]

It's a myth that the Army controls everything in Pakistan. In previous years, the Pakistan Army overthrew the civilian government many times to get into power. This Army hasn't done that: it has respected this civilian government. Part of the reason why they're doing so is because of how unpopular Musharraf had become in this last few years in power, & people in Pakistan were crying out for democracy. With Musharraf forcefully staying in power, the Army was getting a bad press, & people were losing faith in it. This is the reason why the Army doesn't want to get into non-Army related issues, & it has done a pretty good job at that.

Now, the Army has stated numerous times that drone attacks are a violation of the nation's sovereignty. It has closed the US supply lines to Afghanistan as well. It has refused to conduct ground operations in North Waziristan. The Army is not afraid to go against the wishes of the US. It is the civilian government however that authorizes the drone strikes, after which the US gets intelligence from the ISI on where to target. If the civilian government told the Americans to stop the drone attacks, they'd stop them. These are not the issues for the Army to handle, these are the responsibilities of the civilian government.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Have I understood it correct?

That the Pakistani Army and the ISI is supreme and the Pakistan civil govt its subordinate?

 

[StingRoy]

It's a myth that the Army controls everything in Pakistan. In previous years, the Pakistan Army overthrew the civilian government many times to get into power. This Army hasn't done that: it has respected this civilian government. Part of the reason why they're doing so is because of how unpopular Musharraf had become in this last few years in power, & people in Pakistan were crying out for democracy. With Musharraf forcefully staying in power, the Army was getting a bad press, & people were losing faith in it. This is the reason why the Army doesn't want to get into non-Army related issues, & it has done a pretty good job at that.

Now, the Army has stated numerous times that drone attacks are a violation of the nation's sovereignty. It has closed the US supply lines to Afghanistan as well. It has refused to conduct ground operations in North Waziristan. The Army is not afraid to go against the wishes of the US. It is the civilian government however that authorizes the drone strikes, after which the US gets intelligence from the ISI on where to target. If the civilian government told the Americans to stop the drone attacks, they'd stop them. These are not the issues for the Army to handle, these are the responsibilities of the civilian government.

Let me bust your "myth" . The army is currently not gone Musharraf way simply because they know that once they do it, they won't get the money from the US. Money is what is keeping the PA rolling. You cut the source, and you see a cut in the army budget and they won't allow to do that.

If you feel that the army thinks that the drone attacks are a violation of sovereignty, you are wrong since all targets are approved by the army before the US drones can carry out their missions.

 

[angeldemon_007]

What does India expect to get from Pakistan Army and Pakistan ISI. The ISI and the army of Pakistan are more anti-india than the PPP puppets.

Look civilian government will still be there....but we also want to talk to military establishment...we have been talking to civilian government for decades but no success yet....we are just trying to find solution and thats why this time GOI is trying something new....it has nothing to do with maligning Pakistan...we are just trying to ensure peace between two great nations...

 

[Leader]

I think the whole purpose of India is to "let us stay in Afghanistan after ISAF leaves, and to find out a settlement on Kashmir"