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National Day celebrations in Saudi Arabia and what was witnessed during this event that bounds well

I have a slightly different opinion. In my view political Islam has more influence today than it has ever had in the modern era, maybe excluding the 1980's and 1990's although this can be disputed.

I don't see people leaving Islam. What I see are people wanting to correct wrong interpretations that were left in the hands of a few clerics to decide or regime policies. This is not only limited to KSA.

In fact the reason why KSA has one of the highest convinced Atheists in the Muslim world is (according to my view) partially due to those wrong policies by the clergy (past clergy mostly) that are now being corrected.



What I see is a more confident KSA and a Islam in KSA that is more in line with the people rather than the wishes of a few past and current hardliners.

I used to think like you, but I have since refined my views. Political Islam being popular is not a sign to me that Islam is in a good state or that Islam is cherished. We can agree that Islam is used for benefit by many of these movements and by many governments as well. And then on a general level, ie the ordinary people, they talk about Islam more and are more aware of social issues in the Muslim world, but it's more to do with it being trendy or part of identity. Islam may look like it's growing or flourishing, until you look deeper into human psychology and understand why it has relevance in peoples lives or political movements. Then you realize not many people's characters or decision making is affected by Islam or the Prophet's way of life. If that was the case, the Muslim world would be different. I don't care if Europe has a Muslim majority in the future, it will not make me feel any different.

That being said, Islam is not under any threat. It is still a huge part of culture in Muslim nations and Arab nations and is a big part of peoples lives. No one will forget about it anytime soon. It will appear to be alive but it is not, if you observe the character of people. There are character flaws that can't be ignored but it's too late to fix as the majority have them. Character to me is a better qualifying determinant of whether Islam is flourishing or not. Others may look at it from different perspective.

Anyway, I have to go now, always a good discussion as usual. It's probably difficult to understand me because I understand things better than I can explain them. I need to work on that, lol.
 
I used to think like you, but I have since refined my views. Political Islam being popular is not a sign to me that Islam is in a good state or that Islam is cherished. We can agree that Islam is used for benefit by many of these movements and by many governments as well. And then on a general level, ie the ordinary people, they talk about Islam more and are more aware of social issues in the Muslim world, but it's more to do with it being trendy or part of identity. Islam may look like it's growing or flourishing, until you look deeper into human psychology and understand why it has relevance in peoples lives or political movements. Then you realize not many people's characters or decision making is affected by Islam or the Prophet's way of life. If that was the case, the Muslim world would be different. I don't care if Europe has a Muslim majority in the future, it will not make me feel any different.

That being said, Islam is not under any threat. It is still a huge part of culture in Muslim nations and Arab nations and is a big part of peoples lives. No one will forget about it anytime soon. It will appear to be alive but it is not, if you observe the character of people. There are character flaws that can't be ignored but it's too late to fix as the majority have them. Character to me is a better qualifying determinant of whether Islam is flourishing or not. Others may look at it from different perspective.

Anyway, I have to go now, always a good discussion as usual. It's probably difficult to understand me because I understand things better than I can explain them. I need to work on that, lol.

You raise some good points as usual. I think that it would not be too far-fetched to conclude that it is a bit of both. As for people pretending to be overly religious in order to score brownie points, it is something that has always been the case. It is human nature. May I refer to the Sahwa movement and many of its members (not all of course) and supporters and their "competition" about who is the "better" Muslim or more correct and who is wrong. This is human nature as you say. It's not only confined to religion but political views, ideological and many other areas.

Also if you have any interest about such topics you should read about the ulama in the Islamic world throughout the ages and become familiar with "palace clergy" and "independent scholars". If you take a look at history it was mostly the independent scholars that started trends or who challenged status quo (the establishment). For instance if reading about Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab al-Tamimi you will become familiar with this "fight" and how different his teachings are interpreted today by modern-day clergy (who serve an entire state) from back then.


I think that we can easily conclude that the average person in KSA, Arab world and Muslim world is more familiar with their religion (better living standards, much higher literacy rates, many more different sources of information etc.) than before and when that happens you will always have various camps. People who initially doubted will tend to doubt more while others will strengthen their beliefs. Or otherwise.

Honestly, I have reached a point where I understand that there will never be a consensus about anything (almost) in this world and that people will have to make their own minds up and decide how they want to follow Islam or any other religion for that matter. I can have my own views and my own idea of how I would like to see Islam applied in KSA or the Arab and Muslim world by large or elsewhere.

BTW the most sincere Muslims are those that are far away from the spotlight and who are not part of environments where religion can be misused for various reasons be they political, economic or other reasons.

Most people in KSA and the Arab world and dare I say Muslim world belong in that group but of course their views, interpretations, views of how Islam should be applied in the modern era differs, but I believe that they all want to see Islam as a aid for humans and the society rather than a burden or just an empty old tradition that they are following because their family and ancestors do/did so.

Those are indeed complicated topics and you will have people (Muslims, past and current clerics) who will claim that secularism and Islam are not in conflict while others think that women driving should not be allowed as this gives women an opportunity to engage in harmful activities. Using that logic, I ask, where to draw the line?

Anyway English is not my mother tongue and I am writing posts like this one rather quickly. What we are discussing basically are personal views and how we look at things. In reality it is difficult to either disprove or prove our theories or views. It depends on interpretation really. However what is sure is that the topics that we are discussing are highly complex and although I will claim that I have knowledge about Islam I am by no means any scholar. Such people usually spend their entire life studying Islam and all (or most) of its aspects.
 
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Almost everyone left or is leaving Islam

now thats right and ksa will go through this not only innerwards it will go outwards too..

and that is the point and the evil thing.. so if secularism is your goal than that is naturally for you: a gift.. but for others its poisen and devilish.. and that is the truth..

dealt with and he cannot any longer troll in this informative thread or others

clothing the eyes does not mean being dealt with.. its like running away.. :)
 
...

The Sahwa movement by its nature did not have bad intentions...

Law number 1 :


“You do not worship besides Him but only names which you have named (forged), you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. The command (or the judgement) is for none but Allah. He has commanded that you worship none but Him (i.e. His Monotheism), that is the (true) straight religion, but most men know not.” - 12. Sura Yusuf (Prophet Joseph)



Vision number 1 (Sahwa movement) :

“Kill them all, God will know His own”


Truth number 1 :

“The road to hell is (always) paved with good intentions”



...
 
now thats right and ksa will go through this not only innerwards it will go outwards too..

and that is the point and the evil thing.. so if secularism is your goal than that is naturally for you: a gift.. but for others its poisen and devilish.. and that is the truth..



clothing the eyes does not mean being dealt with.. its like running away.. :)

With all due respect, you are not making any sense. You are not able to argue your case. You should do so if you want people to be convinced by you or if you are interested in some kind of interaction or discussion.

I can also claim that Turkey is going to embrace Hinduism soon. Or that the earth is flat.

Complain to the moderators. "Being deal with" here means, no longer being able to troll an informative thread. As for his nonsense, he can believe in it. I do not care the slightest.

Law number 1 :

“You do not worship besides Him but only names which you have named (forged), you and your fathers, for which Allah has sent down no authority. The command (or the judgement) is for none but Allah. He has commanded that you worship none but Him (i.e. His Monotheism), that is the (true) straight religion, but most men know not.” - 12. Sura Yusuf (Prophet Joseph)



Vision number 1 (Sahwa movement) :

“Kill them all, God will know His own”


Truth number 1 :

“The road to hell is (always) paved with good intentions”



...

The intention as usual (with most people) is always good but they and their movement failed badly. That, I believe, most of us can agree on.
 
ith all due respect, you are not making any sense

what are you ? you dont want to see or dont you see it.. ?

I know why I am not making any sense to you

you are the one who always shows those pictures and youtube crap by trying to indicate that SA is not so old fashioned / arcaic country.. hailing and advertising secularism and individual freedom, if you cannot put this into any sense than you live in your own bubble without hope of seeing the other side..
 
what are you ? you dont want to see or dont you see it.. ?

I know why I am not making any sense to you

you are the one who always shows those pictures and youtube crap by trying to indicate that SA is not so old fashioned / arcaic country.. hailing and advertising secularism and individual freedom, if you cannot put this into any sense than you live in your own bubble without hope of seeing the other side..

You are mistaken. I have not advocated secularism anywhere although I have no problem with it if that is the will of the people in country x or y.

It is not my problem that you seemingly have a problem with the content of this thread. To be honest with you, the only people that appear to have a problem with those changes and what was shown are hardcore Salafis from the region. I have already watched some of their reactions on Youtube in Arabic and English. As well as forums. Ironically those people are nowhere to be found whenever similar events occur in other Muslim countries. Those people are judging KSA in a different light and expecting, I don't know what? You seem to belong in that group.

If you think that KSA is going towards secularism and that this is such a huge crime, I suggest trying to change your ancestral country (Turkey) first.

Anyway you continue not to provide any arguments of any short other than "Islam is dying", "secularism is coming" etc. nonsense.
 
You are mistaken. I have not advocated secularism anywhere although I have no problem with it if that is the will of the people in country x or y.

It is not my problem that you seemingly have a problem with the content of this thread. To be honest with you, the only people that appear to have a problem with those changes and what was shown are hardcore Salafis from the region. I have already watched some of their reactions on Youtube in Arabic and English. As well as forums. Ironically those people are nowhere to be found whenever similar events occur in other Muslim countries. Those people are judging KSA in a different light and expecting, I don't know what? You seem to belong in that group.

If you think that KSA is going towards secularism and that this is such a huge crime, I suggest trying to change your ancestral country (Turkey) first.

Anyway you continue not to provide any arguments of any short other than "Islam is dying", "secularism is coming" etc. nonsense.

than what is it that you personally promote? is it not advertising secularism and personal freedom? and you think I will let you in peace and not warn you is not my duty?

are hardcore Salafis
now that you call them salafi and label them hardcore or just use the name does not make them wrong in their point...
 
than what is it that you personally promote? is it not advertising secularism and personal freedom? and you think I will let you in peace and not warn you is not my duty?


now that you call them salafi and label them hardcore or just use the name does not make them wrong in their point...

My views that I have publicly stated in this thread are visible for all to see. I challenge you to pinpoint where I am supporting any harmful activities from an Islamic perspective.

Their name does not matter. I can call them for Martians instead as I indeed believe that they do not deserve to use a name that originates from the al-Salaf al-Sahih.

People who for example think that women driving is a sin. Who think it is a sin for males and females to interact in public. Basically people with little knowledge about Islam and Islamic history. Do you belong to this group of people?

Why not use your energy to improve Turkey (according to you) instead of worrying about KSA or other countries? Are we not supposed to have our own houses in order before we lecture others?

Silly discussion, really. If you believe that those necessary and rightful (I would call them Islamic changes as the previous nonsense was not only idiotic but also anti-Islamic) changes are wrong, then so be it. I cannot change your views but I disagree strongly. I am yet to see you argue why I am wrong.
 
For anyone wondering the song in the video..he is a full copy..Abdul Majeed Abdullah, one of the best singer from S.Arabia.


It was played all over the place during the National Day. Nice song. Saudi Arabian musicians are very talented, popular and well-known in the Arab world. Whether it is about traditional Arab music, modern one or a blend. Let alone poetry which is a big thing as you know.
 
Extremely positive step from Saudi Arabia. This will improve the perception of muslims worldwide.
The voice of the youngsters is finally being heard.

The points that I mentioned in post 1 are steps in the right direction in my view but not everyone is happy about those changes at home (a minority) and abroad (a more larger number of people as they often tend to judge KSA by another standard due to religious reasons (Makkah and Madinah) ). At the end of the day the will of the local people is the most important thing here. As you saw in this thread, a Turkish brother is talking about "secularism emerging" and "Islam dying". This is nonsense IMO.
 
The points that I mentioned in post 1 are steps in the right direction in my view but not everyone is happy about those changes at home (a minority) and abroad (a more larger number of people as they often tend to judge KSA by another standard due to religious reasons (Makkah and Madinah) ). At the end of the day the will of the local people is the most important thing here. As you saw in this thread, a Turkish brother is talking about "secularism emerging" and "Islam dying". This is nonsense IMO.

There will always be people trying to pull you back.
But these reforms would gain you goodwill throughout the world, particularly in Europe, China and the US. More importantly, it would discourage extremist tendencies- which have been a huge problem in the nearby regions.
 

Dimah, proud of you!:cheers:



There has been a 100% increase over the last year of female lawyers.




LOL, not as good as this one.


(14 million views).

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