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National Day celebrations in Saudi Arabia and what was witnessed during this event that bounds well

I am not aware of any Burmese nationals living in KSA. I do however know that KSA is hosting one of the largest Rohingya communities in the world and that this community is quite old.

There is an entire neighborhood named after them in Makkah.

According to this map there are 200.000.



According to this link there are twice as many (400.000).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people#cite_note-6

In think I believe that some of them have become nationals (the very old migration) similar to how we have nationals of Pakistani, Indian, Afghan, South East Asian (Indonesian and Malaysian in particular) and Uzbek origin. etc. There are especially quite a lot of the two latter groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesians

We have Bosnians, Albanians, Turks, Caucasians etc. as well. Every single Muslim ethnicity, a portion of them that visited for Umrah and Hajj, stayed and later were absorbed into the local populations. Now they are citizens. Many are mixed of course if not all.

Most are based in Hijaz which is a very diverse region. One of the most diverse in the world although the majority are indigenous peoples (Hijazis) and other Arabs.
There was an article in Arab news (I think) about Burmese in KSA being given long term residency, the figure they mentioned was 3m. Some where in translation, a zero got added.

:rofl:

I think that you need to take your medicine, my Turkified and Arabized Anatolian of unknown origin (I would bet on either Armenian or Kurdish). Enough of your fantasy and dreams for now.

@Khafee
Put him on your ignore list. His half baked BS will get you banned.

Some people are experts at pulling out facts from piss tv, mullahs hallucination.com, or their behind. Ignoring them is the best option. They can't change ground realities, they can only thump their chests on an online forum.
 
1. Women no longer need their male guardian's permission to work or study. To begin with the entire guardianship system is not enforced which is explained in detail here by
2. Women can now participate in all sports without any restrictions and physical education classes for women have become obligatory.
3. Women can now enter stadiums and attend concerts alongside with men.
4. Women can now drive.
5. The religious police lost its arresting powers last year, and will lose more of its autonomy soon if not all of it rendering them essentially useless.

The power to mutawas was gift of fahad and naif...now entire control of interior ministry has been taken away from house of naif.
 
The power to mutawas was gift of fahad and naif...now entire control of interior ministry has been taken away from house of naif.

I kind a agree... Kingdom was most conservative during the rule of Shah Fahad.
successors... on the other hand, has been very wise in introducing reforms.

May Allah protect Saudi Arabia and conserve our brotherly alliance for the times to come.

 
While he has made his share of rookie mistakes, I think there is a lot of potential in Mohammad to change the kingdom and take it out of the religious despot regime it had come to be identified as publicly.

Interesting fact, I saw the prince(mohd) once back in 2003 at the Kingdom tower and at that time he was just another prince looking to get membership to the health club of the then new Four Seasons hotel.

Should have made friends with him, would have changed my life :lol:

The Son
of THE Governor of Riyadh
, was: "looking to get membership to the health club of the then new Four Seasons hotel."

It was 14yrs ago. You must be mistaken.
 
The Son of THE Governor of Riyadh, was: "looking to get membership to the health club of the then new Four Seasons hotel."

It was 14yrs ago. You must be mistaken.
Yup, he was. He was a teenager then, and the limit was 18- and this hotel was owned by Waleed bin Talal. So just a basic referral was needed.
 
Foreigners might not know how many taboos such behavior is associated with by conservatives (especially the clergy) and how much it is challenging those taboos openly for all to see. This behavior was only tolerated by the government but the conservatives have so far done nothing against such arrangements and the many recent social, economic and religious reforms contrary to what many outsiders were thinking.

Foreigners are barred for being integrated part of Saudi society so it the least they care. Many of my friends have married Saudi women in last few years but they always end up making a permanent home in Bahrain or UAE.

Saudi social progress forward is just a news for Saudi consumption, for rest of the world it is just someone transitioning from 15 century to 21 century. It doesn't ring any bells of excitement.

Imagine the billions of dollars of oil revenue spent to keep backwardism alive!
This is broad theft of national wealth!
 
There was an article in Arab news (I think) about Burmese in KSA being given long term residency, the figure they mentioned was 3m. Some where in translation, a zero got added.


Put him on your ignore list. His half baked BS will get you banned.

Some people are experts at pulling out facts from piss tv, mullahs hallucination.com, or their behind. Ignoring them is the best option. They can't change ground realities, they can only thump their chests on an online forum.

You are right, brother. I should not waste my time on obvious nonsense.

Foreigners are barred for being integrated part of Saudi society so it the least they care. Many of my friends have married Saudi women in last few years but they always end up making a permanent home in Bahrain or UAE.

Saudi social progress forward is just a news for Saudi consumption, for rest of the world it is just someone transitioning from 15 century to 21 century. It doesn't ring any bells of excitement.

Imagine the billions of dollars of oil revenue spent to keep backwardism alive!
This is broad theft of national wealth!

I disagree. Arab expats do not face this problem as do many other nationalities ranging from Filipinos to Europeans. It all depends on the person and his motivation. I do however agree with you that more should be done in this endeavor but it is not a one-way street. Mistakes were committed, just like in every country, however they are being corrected which is the most important thing here. People need to be ready too. No need to mention the era of King Faisal and how that legacy (sadly) was halted post 1979.

I kind a agree... Kingdom was most conservative during the rule of Shah Fahad.
successors... on the other hand, has been very wise in introducing reforms.

May Allah protect Saudi Arabia and conserve our brotherly alliance for the times to come.


A few days ago:


In complete other news, I really hope that Raif Badawi will be released soon. Another case giving the country a bad publicity. He should be released ASAP along with the others. They are sons of the country and they must be part of the solution and we must engage with them and their grievances. This is the only longterm and correct solution IMO!
 
I disagree. Arab expats do not face this problem as do many other nationalities ranging from Filipinos to Europeans. It all depends on the person and his motivation. I do however agree with you that more should be done in this endeavor but it is not a one-way street. Mistakes were committed, just like in every country, however they are being corrected which is the most important thing here. People need to be ready too. No need to mention the era of King Faisal and how that legacy (sadly) was halted post 1979.

After era of King Faisal there was a lost lost era of 22 years under King Fahad..followed up several fold improvement under King Abdullah..much of the reforms we will see now are fruits of foundation laid by late King Abdullah. The internal opposition to reforms was eliminated by threat of JASTA and collapse of oil prices. As America sent a clear times up signal to Riyadh!

Fahad for most part after gulf war was disabled person..and the power struggled ensued inside the royal family with Naif using his power of interior ministry and Abdullah using his power of National Guard ministry.

Naif got the upper hand in controlling public life by unleashing the mutaween.
While much of the Saudi capital fled to USA by legal and illegal channels.

I am glad that I will return to a very different Saudi Arabia in a couple months...!

We have been in the party scene of Saudi for a long time as i spent my entire life in Saudi...so one thing which can be said confidently that Saudis arent conservative like the state portrays to be. Unlike Pakistan where people are actually more conservative than the state itself.
 
After era of King Faisal there was a lost lost era of 22 years under King Fahad..followed up several fold improvement under King Abdullah..much of the reforms we will see now are fruits of foundation laid by late King Abdullah. The internal opposition to reforms was eliminated by threat of JASTA and collapse of oil prices. As America sent a clear times up signal to Riyadh!

Fahad for most part after gulf war was disabled person..and the power struggled ensued inside the royal family with Naif using his power of interior ministry and Abdullah using his power of National Guard ministry.

Naif got the upper hand in controlling public life by unleashing the mutaween.
While much of the Saudi capital fled to USA by legal and illegal channels.

I am glad that I will return to a very different Saudi Arabia in a couple months...!

We have been in the party scene of Saudi for a long time as i spent my entire life in Saudi...so one thing which can be said confidently that Saudis arent conservative like the state portrays to be. Unlike Pakistan where people are actually more conservative than the state itself.

The problem was the Sahwa movement, Siege of Makkah in 1979 by a group of crazy fanatics, the "Islamic" revolution next door in 1979, Soviet-Afghan war (that we should have kept out, similarly Pakistan if possible despite being a neighbor) and hardline clerics getting an opportunity under Fahd to gain power in many ways. Later came the catastrophic (for the region) First Gulf War and subsequent US presence (soldiers) in KSA which made those hardliners go even more bunkers.

Anyway it is safe to say that such behavior and policies (even by the clergy) is a thing of the past under MbS and the population/people/society is also a different one (after all many decades have gone by) so they will never allow such things to happen again. Today the development is only going on way and that is towards change.

You are welcome anytime. Enjoy your time in Pakistan and stay safe.
 
looks like SA is transforming in a western society.. step for step we will see the transformation in the name of freedom.. I ponder when will the unveiling of the ladies begin or has it already begun on TV streets and so on?

Almost everyone left or is leaving Islam, have you been living under a rock? Some of these rules are indeed overreaching and one can't understand how the clergy came up with them. Although some like mixing in concerts, that's not really allowed. But, it's available everyone in the world and all Muslim nations, and its inefficient and not feasible to not move forward with secular reform. Otherwise these nations will get isolated from the world or fall behind. So everyone has to make decisions like these that are not easy for some and others welcome them.

That doesn't change, however, that yes certain things are disapproved by the Prophet(SA) himself, that are difficult to follow these days. A lot of these rules were intended because of the general consequences. Some girls and guys can be friends and go to concerts and not do anything forbidden. But, the worry from the Prophet(SA) was general trends are going to lead to other general trends which are going to detach people from Islam and will eventually make people indulge in the forbidden.

So what should you as a person do? You can't do anything, the world is changing. This is the last era of humanity and God is much better understanding and equipped on how to change people back towards religion through his own ways which we can't understand.
 
Someone is high on camel piss again... :sarcastic:

Are you high on donkey piss again? What I wrote was the reality. Especially the Turkified and Arabized part and not really being particularly well-liked in the region. Anyway your idiotic and Arab-obsessed compatriot has been dealt with and he cannot any longer troll in this informative thread or others.

Almost everyone left or is leaving Islam, have you been living under a rock? Some of these rules are indeed overreaching and one can't understand how the clergy came up with them. Although some like mixing in concerts, that's not really allowed. But, it's available everyone in the world and all Muslim nations, and its inefficient and not feasible to not move forward with secular reform. Otherwise these nations will get isolated from the world or fall behind. So everyone has to make decisions like these that are not easy for some and others welcome them.

That doesn't change, however, that yes certain things are disapproved by the Prophet(SA) himself, that are difficult to follow these days. A lot of these rules were intended because of the general consequences. Some girls and guys can be friends and go to concerts and not do anything forbidden. But, the worry from the Prophet(SA) was general trends are going to lead to other general trends which are going to detach people from Islam and will eventually make people indulge in the forbidden.

So what should you as a person do? You can't do anything, the world is changing. This is the last era of humanity and God is much better understanding and equipped on how to change people back towards religion through his own ways which we can't understand.

This is not about "leaving Islam". This is about correcting wrongful interpretations of Islam that were left in the hand of a few powerful clerics (most of whom are dead by now) to decide in the 1980's (mostly late 1980's and early 1990's) as a consequence of the Sahwa movement (Islamic awakening movement) that gained strength due to regional events (Siege of Makkah in 1979, the "Islamic" Revolution next door in Iran, Afghan-Soviet war, Iraq-Iran war, First Gulf War etc.). This mostly happened under the reign of King Fahd. King Abdullah initiated much needed reforms and since then those have accelerated under King Salman and MbS. Obviously with popular support from the people.

Non-related men and women can easily interact in public (that has always been the case throughout Islamic history everywhere). Nobody is advocating for adultery, public intoxication, drug use, women dressed as sexual objects (non-decent in other words in public) in KSA. Not even the liberals.

I don't know why some judge KSA in a different light. What KSA has rightly reformed is something (that from what I am aware of) was found in no other Muslim country.

Timur is a person that has no clue about KSA, the Arab world. He does not speak Arabic and he has most likely never met a person from KSA seeing that he is living in Germany. Probably born and breed there. When he hears about such reforms he is probably thinking that KSA will turn into Western Europe. That is not going to happen. Not only in KSA but the entire Muslim world and non-Western world. Obviously there is influence from the West (like anywhere in the world) but that does not mean that people will suddenly turn into carbon copies of the West. If KSA and the people wanted to do such a thing it would have been done a long time ago.
 
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@Sharif al-Hijaz

I do not judge KSA in a different light nor do I focus on specific nations. I'm observing the general trends in the world or Muslim world too. That's what I was trying to get across for @Timur, and I also mentioned that some of those rules have no basis indeed. The discussion he brought is more about general trends and that is what I got a bit in depth into. As for KSA, I've been there and it's pretty conservative/religious society more than other nations I've visited.

We can't deny that to keep up with global pace some reform/secular reform is needed. I do not see that as a bad or good intent, I just it as a natural development that kind of has to take place with the way the society is moving. But, I do recognize this will affect religion and draw people further away out even if people don't realize that or don't intend that. And I mean this generally, all Muslims, not just KSA. Many other countries have far surpassed KSA in this area, and KSA is very late to the party. So it would be hypocritical for anyone to single your country out.
 
@Sharif al-Hijaz

I do not judge KSA in a different light nor do I focus on specific nations. I'm observing the general trends in the world or Muslim world too. That's what I was trying to get across for @Timur, and I also mentioned that some of those rules have no basis indeed. The discussion he brought is more about general trends and that is what I got a bit in depth into. As for KSA, I've been there and it's pretty conservative/religious society more than other nations I've visited.

We can't deny that to keep up with global pace some reform/secular reform is needed. I do not see that as a bad or good intent, I just it as a natural development that kind of has to take place with the way the society is moving. But, I do recognize this will affect religion and draw people further away out even if people don't realize that or don't intend that. And I mean this generally, all Muslims, not just KSA. Many other countries have far surpassed KSA in this area, and KSA is very late to the party. So it would be hypocritical for anyone to single your country out.

I have a slightly different opinion. In my view political Islam has more influence today than it has ever had in the modern era, maybe excluding the 1980's and 1990's although this can be disputed.

I don't see people leaving Islam. What I see are people wanting to correct wrong interpretations that were left in the hands of a few clerics to decide or regime policies. This is not only limited to KSA.

I see more average people studying Islam and actually thinking about what the religion teaches. Which is why more people than before can counter nonsense (misuse of Islam or any other religion for that matter) than before. I see that as a healthy thing.

In fact the reason why KSA has one of the highest percentages of convinced Atheists in the Muslim world is (according to my view) partially due to those wrong policies by the clergy (past clergy mostly) that are now being corrected.



What I see is a more confident KSA and a Islam in KSA that is more in line with the people rather than the wishes of a few past and current hardliners.

The Sahwa movement by its nature did not have bad intentions but whenever people, politics, power and religion mix, you will always have people who are ready to misuse good movements. Later this development became a competition among people about who is more religious, who is doing good, who is doing bad etc. In such a climate, many people will not feel at ease and see religion as something that is forced upon you. Something that you do automatically like a robot. I don't agree in this interpretation. Islam was always a progressive religion. A religion of thought and study. Clerics have a responsibility to not turn people away from religion and they must understand that society changes. 2017 is different from 1917 or 1517. This must be accepted. I am not talking about the fundamentals of religion here that we can easily conclude are eternal such as tawhid etc.

I believe that @Bubblegum Crisis shares my view as well as @Arabi . Most likely @Full Moon too. Maybe they have something to add if they see this post and thread? It's good to hear different opinions.
 
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