Mr Bond, is it? Or, Mr Bean-counter?

[PlanetWarrior]

This team was created for a political agenda and ended up being disbanded for a political agenda. That is the long and short of it. This is a good example of what happens when Generals play politics in India. The Indian political center is a very dangerous place to get entangled in. When the old gets replaced with the new, there are bound to be "clean-ups" as in this case.

So long story short, no hot shot team in India capable of taking down the likes of Hafiz Saeed or even get a fix on the location of Dawood Ibrahim?

Don, you certainly would agree with me that the best tactical teams are created "within the spur of the moment as and when the need arises" yeah ? Training is done on the terrain and op needs. Manpower is available from a huge resource and all which is required is particular skills for each mission. The fact that HS and DI still live and roam about freely I believe is a political decision more than a military one. In fact, I sincerely believe that the military top brass in both Islamabad and New Delhi laugh at the audacity of these men.

 

[noksss]

This team was created for a political agenda and ended up being disbanded for a political agenda. That is the long and short of it. This is a good example of what happens when Generals play politics in India. The Indian political center is a very dangerous place to get entangled in. When the old gets replaced with the new, there are bound to be "clean-ups" as in this case.




Don, you certainly would agree with me that the best tactical teams are created "within the spur of the moment as and when the need arises" yeah ? Training is done on the terrain and op needs. Manpower is available from a huge resource and all which is required is particular skills for each mission. The fact that HS and DI still live and roam about freely I believe is a political decision more than a military one. In fact, I sincerely believe that the military top brass in both Islamabad and New Delhi laugh at the audacity of these men.

I dont think its for political purpose if that was the case then they wouldnt have done 8 successful operations under this unit
Secret military intelligence unit ran 8 covert operations abroad? - The Times of India

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I dont think its for political purpose if that was the case then they wouldnt have done 8 successful operations under this unit
Secret military intelligence unit ran 8 covert operations abroad? - The Times of India

Once Bikram Singh pulled the plug on the TSD, it was a free for all. Some alleged that auditors had found Rs8 crore missing from TSD accounts. V.K. Singh used the money, others alleged, to bribe ministers and destabilise the Omar Abdullah-led government in Jammu and Kashmir.

 

[noksss]

Let me ask you this can anyone bring down a goverment by a mere 8 Crore? that was the reply of V.K.singh to these allegations also this has not been proved till date

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Let me ask you this can anyone bring down a goverment by a mere 8 Crore? that was the reply of V.K.singh to these allegations also this has not been proved till date

The allegation exists. Stranger things have been known to happen

 

[noksss]

The allegation exists. Stranger things have been known to happen

So the allegations exists and not proved what is the take away in all these? we as a country are the loosers end of the day when some fine covert operatives are asked to count the shoes by the unit getting disbanded .

 

[Donatello]

This team was created for a political agenda and ended up being disbanded for a political agenda. That is the long and short of it. This is a good example of what happens when Generals play politics in India. The Indian political center is a very dangerous place to get entangled in. When the old gets replaced with the new, there are bound to be "clean-ups" as in this case.




Don, you certainly would agree with me that the best tactical teams are created "within the spur of the moment as and when the need arises" yeah ? Training is done on the terrain and op needs. Manpower is available from a huge resource and all which is required is particular skills for each mission. The fact that HS and DI still live and roam about freely I believe is a political decision more than a military one. In fact, I sincerely believe that the military top brass in both Islamabad and New Delhi laugh at the audacity of these men.

Yaar dekho.........India claims and alleges these two men are responsible for their ills. However, Pakistan cannot act without credible evidence.....and above all, there is no extradition treaty b/w India and Pakistan. Hafiz Saeed was arrested, charged and put under house arrest with his activities pinned down, however, since there was no credible intelligence or evidence, the court has to let him go. That is how it works. Hafiz Saeed or DI did not personally go and do the job. Because by that logic, PM Modi could also be called characterized on the same lines, he was the CM of gujarat when killings happened, but your courts gave him a clean sheet....because they couldn't tie him directly to any incident. Modi did not go out and shoot anyone himself. Same is the case with DI and HS.

Coming to the question of having teams, why is it your political will doesn't exist to take such actions? That is pretty vague and beyond me. Do the politicians not care about India or Indians? Then that is your local problem, not Pakistan. I think India was in a similar place when the Bhopal tragedy happened and the Indians wanted Warren Anderson extradited from USA.....but what happened?

 

[PlanetWarrior]

So the allegations exists and not proved what is the take away in all these? we as a country are the loosers end of the day when some fine covert operatives are asked to count the shoes by the unit getting disbanded .

Yaar dekho.........India claims and alleges these two men are responsible for their ills. However, Pakistan cannot act without credible evidence.....and above all, there is no extradition treaty b/w India and Pakistan. Hafiz Saeed was arrested, charged and put under house arrest with his activities pinned down, however, since there was no credible intelligence or evidence, the court has to let him go. That is how it works. Hafiz Saeed or DI did not personally go and do the job. Because by that logic, PM Modi could also be called characterized on the same lines, he was the CM of gujarat when killings happened, but your courts gave him a clean sheet....because they couldn't tie him directly to any incident. Modi did not go out and shoot anyone himself. Same is the case with DI and HS.

Coming to the question of having teams, why is it your political will doesn't exist to take such actions? That is pretty vague and beyond me. Do the politicians not care about India or Indians? Then that is your local problem, not Pakistan. I think India was in a similar place when the Bhopal tragedy happened and the Indians wanted Warren Anderson extradited from USA.....but what happened?

Yaar, I am inclined to agree that given the lack of evidence and the further lack of any extradition treaty between India and Pakistan, there is no obligation on Pakistan to extradite these men to India. The fact that Pakistan placed HS under house arrest pending any credible evidence from the Indians was magnanimous on their side. Unfortunately for India it tried to capitalize on the Mumbai incident by making incessant demands on Pakistan which had little if any effect. Now in the case of Modi, it was simply claimed by his opponents that his perceived initial inaction could have saved lives and that was thrown out of the window. In the case of HS and DI, the claim is that they orchestrated and planned the operations and that they are accordingly as guilty as the guys who pulled the triggers. Let's leave that debate for another day since it isn't related to this thread.

On the topic of covert teams from India, I earlier mentioned that these teams could be easily assembled and trained within a short space of time by any country having a capable military. The USA has the resources to fund the permanent training and maintenance of such teams but more importantly countries like the US require such teams to be on permanent stand by for their political agenda and diktat. India on the other hand cannot push its luck too far. If anything 1962 was a lesson in itself for the Indian nation. India can make demands and rely on world support for a nation perceived to be peaceful without any expansionist ideas. That has worked so far to a large extent. Apart from that, these covert teams can be used for a high standing politician's personal agenda which could result in egg on India's face. The allegations against Gen Singh (even though unproven to date) is a reflection of this. There are various other reasons which would lend justification to such a unit not being created as a permanent structure within the military in my opinion. But given India's ability to fund such a unit as a permanent unit, I would love to hear reasons from members as to why they believe that such a unit should be permanently established within the military

 

[Donatello]

Yaar, I am inclined to agree that given the lack of evidence and the further lack of any extradition treaty between India and Pakistan, there is no obligation on Pakistan to extradite these men to India. The fact that Pakistan placed HS under house arrest pending any credible evidence from the Indians was magnanimous on their side. Unfortunately for India it tried to capitalize on the Mumbai incident by making incessant demands on Pakistan which had little if any effect. Now in the case of Modi, it was simply claimed by his opponents that his perceived initial inaction could have saved lives and that was thrown out of the window. In the case of HS and DI, the claim is that they orchestrated and planned the operations and that they are accordingly as guilty as the guys who pulled the triggers. Let's leave that debate for another day since it isn't related to this thread.

On the topic of covert teams from India, I earlier mentioned that these teams could be easily assembled and trained within a short space of time by any country having a capable military. The USA has the resources to fund the permanent training and maintenance of such teams but more importantly countries like the US require such teams to be on permanent stand by for their political agenda and diktat. India on the other hand cannot push its luck too far. If anything 1962 was a lesson in itself for the Indian nation. India can make demands and rely on world support for a nation perceived to be peaceful without any expansionist ideas. That has worked so far to a large extent. Apart from that, these covert teams can be used for a high standing politician's personal agenda which could result in egg on India's face. The allegations against Gen Singh (even though unproven to date) is a reflection of this. There are various other reasons which would lend justification to such a unit not being created as a permanent structure within the military in my opinion. But given India's ability to fund such a unit as a permanent unit, I would love to hear reasons from members as to why they believe that such a unit should be permanently established within the military

I agree with what you say, but then IT IS UP TO INDIA make decisions and stick with it. Pulling HS/DI everytime in the talks with Pakistan or talks with some ex-PM and ex-President of Pakistan, doesn't help. In either cases, India wants HS and DI alive and in India. That is asking too much. India can surely assemble a team, actually they don't even need to do that, because there are plenty of trigger happy guns for hire in Pakistan (in Karachi i can help you out ) but a dead DI/HS doesn't help India...because the burden of proof is on them. And the day Pakistan senses that DI is more of a liability for Pakistan......he will be killed/eliminated by Pakistan itself. All this talk of RAW knowing the DI is in Afghan-Pak border is BS.....considering the immunity with which he could visit the gulf states......when we talk about covert teams we talk about the likes of SAD of CIA (US) or the Mossad hit unit who captured the Nazis after WW2 from as far as Argentina or the members of Black September. But in some of those cases, it was easy....just kill the person. In other cases they had to hatch elaborate plans to capture the person alive and then bring him to Israel....like the case of Mordechai Vanunu where Israel captured the man from Rome, loaded him on their ship and took him back to Israel. You need a lot more than manpower to do something like that in a foreign country.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

I agree with what you say, but then IT IS UP TO INDIA make decisions and stick with it. Pulling HS/DI everytime in the talks with Pakistan or talks with some ex-PM and ex-President of Pakistan, doesn't help. In either cases, India wants HS and DI alive and in India. That is asking too much. India can surely assemble a team, actually they don't even need to do that, because there are plenty of trigger happy guns for hire in Pakistan (in Karachi i can help you out ) but a dead DI/HS doesn't help India...because the burden of proof is on them. And the day Pakistan senses that DI is more of a liability for Pakistan......he will be killed/eliminated by Pakistan itself. All this talk of RAW knowing the DI is in Afghan-Pak border is BS.....considering the immunity with which he could visit the gulf states......when we talk about covert teams we talk about the likes of SAD of CIA (US) or the Mossad hit unit who captured the Nazis after WW2 from as far as Argentina or the members of Black September. But in some of those cases, it was easy....just kill the person. In other cases they had to hatch elaborate plans to capture the person alive and then bring him to Israel....like the case of Mordechai Vanunu where Israel captured the man from Rome, loaded him on their ship and took him back to Israel. You need a lot more than manpower to do something like that in a foreign country.

Indeed my friend. But on a side note, imagine India's credibility against Pakistan on the world stage if people like HS and DI did not exist. In fact, if I headed the Indian establishment, my main fear would be the Pakistani establishment knocking these dudes off for lack of any future benefit to Pakistan. If I had to assemble any team for them, it would be a specialized unit to protect their safety