More power to Pakistan's jihadis.

[Rafi]

bUT these are toeksm - the very fact that you know them by their religion is proof of their tokenism

My dear Musey - it is not widely known - except to the men that they serve with. And to some others in the know.

 

[muse]

the Army is a product of the country and the common people that comprise the country (less so just post partition when only the sons of the bourgeoise primarily were the ones who used to enlist)

what you call ''tokemism'' (i think you meant tokenism) is really just fact. If what you said were true, then why was a former GOC SSG from a minority sect?


If you think that to get promoted one must be a ''wahhaby'' then you are very sadly mistaken. Yeah, the serving top brass look like real ''wahhabys'' if i ever met one!

---------- Post added at 02:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:14 AM ----------



well you seem to ''know'' them all as wahhabys.....so what difference does it make?

Not at all - my suggestion is that the ideology is wahabi

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------

My dear Musey - it is not widely known - except to the men that they serve with. And to some others in the know.

Yes, you once again prove that religious affiliation is so important that people make it their business to know the religious affiliation of other officers

 

[Rafi]

Not at all - my suggestion is that the ideology is wahabi

---------- Post added at 10:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:18 PM ----------



Yes, you once again prove that religious affiliation is so important that people make it their business to know the religious affiliation of other officers

My friend - when you serve with someone, you learn everything about them, not much more bonds men, than having incoming fire, and there are organizations that are the "eyes and ears" of the forces that keep all sorts of info on the "boyz".

 

[53fd]

Not at all - my suggestion is that the ideology is wahabi

How is the ideology Wahabi? Just because the Pakistan Army has 'Jihad' in its slogan does not mean its ideology is Wahabi. Btw, the content of this thread is strikingly similar to the one in this old thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ded-terrorists-trained-pakistan-china-19.html

 

[muse]

Look fellahs - you know that you have a giant problem - why not look at the problem and fix it instead of these silly denials? What do the denials achieve for you?

The inclusion of religious affiliation and religious slogans runs contrary to the ethic of a professional army - it's great for a tribal army, but Pakistan is a modern multi-ethnic, multi-religious state -- on top of it an islamist insurgency led by Pakistan army's own creations has turned the tables on the army -- the issues of which islam, Which Shariah and which Jiahd and jihadists is tearing Pakistani society apart -- right now you may be thinking "all these horrible hindus around and he has to raise this issue again" -- but there are no secrets with regard to our problem - lets fix it now - before the Jihadis get more powerful, both inside and outside the army

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------

How is the ideology Wahabi? Just because the Pakistan Army has 'Jihad' in its slogan does not mean its ideology is Wahabi. Btw, the content of this thread is strikingly similar to the one in this old thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...ded-terrorists-trained-pakistan-china-19.html

Billu

Why would it's slogans be wahabi but not its ideology?? Similar content? Sure, similar problem

 

[53fd]

Look fellahs - you know that you have a giant problem - why not look at the problem and fix it instead of these silly denials? What do the denials achieve for you?

The inclusion of religious affiliation and religious slogans runs contrary to the ethic of a professional army - it's great for a tribal army, but Pakistan is a modern multi-ethnic, multi-religious state -- on top of it an islamist insurgency led by Pakistan army's own creations has turned the tables on the army -- the issues of which islam, Which Shariah and which Jiahd and jihadists is tearing Pakistani society apart -- right now you may be thinking "all these horrible hindus around and he has to raise this issue again" -- but there are no secrets with regard to our problem - lets fix it now - before the Jihadis get more powerful, both inside and outside the army

There is no misagreements between us about what's already happened, but there is disagreement about what is currently going on.

 

[muse]

My friend - when you serve with someone, you learn everything about them, not much more bonds men, than having incoming fire, and there are organizations that are the "eyes and ears" of the forces that keep all sorts of info on the "boyz".

That's just the point I'm making - these officers are not pakistani as much as they are Ahmadi and Christian or whatever -- this focus on religion and sect is wrecking the army - Ali khan is a small example - in the "Internal Decay" thread, the point is made that every step the army wanted to take was leaked to the insurgents by other armymen

 

[53fd]

Look fellahs - you know that you have a giant problem - why not look at the problem and fix it instead of these silly denials? What do the denials achieve for you?

The inclusion of religious affiliation and religious slogans runs contrary to the ethic of a professional army - it's great for a tribal army, but Pakistan is a modern multi-ethnic, multi-religious state -- on top of it an islamist insurgency led by Pakistan army's own creations has turned the tables on the army -- the issues of which islam, Which Shariah and which Jiahd and jihadists is tearing Pakistani society apart -- right now you may be thinking "all these horrible hindus around and he has to raise this issue again" -- but there are no secrets with regard to our problem - lets fix it now - before the Jihadis get more powerful, both inside and outside the army

---------- Post added at 10:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------



Billu

Why would it's slogans be wahabi but not its ideology?? Similar content? Sure, similar problem

Again, I fail to understand how 'Jihad' is a Wahabi slogan. The slogan has been misused & hijacked by Wahabis sure, but that doesn't mean the concept (or the slogan) of Jihad has become a Wahabi one.

 

[muse]

There is no misagreements between us about what's already happened, but there is disagreement about what is currently going on.

Tell me how and why things are different - what's changed? have the slogans changed, has the ideology changed? - I think Billu, that you must not argue the rear guard position - if you cannot be in front, choose another argument.

 

[53fd]

Tell me how and why things are different - what's changed? have the slogans changed, has the ideology changed? - I think Billu, that you must not argue the rear guard position - if you cannot be in front, choose another argument.

Muse bhai, the slogan of Jihad in the Pakistan Army has a long tradition, long before the radicalization of the Pakistani society in the 80s. What's changed? The slogan 'Jihad' used by the terrorists, & the slogan 'Jihad' used by the Pakistan Army mean completely opposite things. While the concept of 'Jihad' to the terrorists pertains to their takfiri ideology, the killing of Shias/Barelvis/non-Muslims; the concept of 'Jihad' used by the Pakistan Army is the opposite of that. To the Pakistan Army, it means defending your motherland with everything you've got against all threats, even if it means sacrificing your life. There are countless Shias, Barelvis, non-Muslims in the Pakistan Army; the Pakistan Army is a volunteer Army, it recruits from all over the country in great numbers based on merit. This, to my opinion, is the opposite of the Takfiri ideology infested in the terrorists.

It is very clear to me: while a few Takfiri thoughts have managed to slip in the Armed Forces, most of the Army is invigored by the true spirit of Jihad, not with the concept of Takfiri Jihad preached by the terrorists. It is very simple: this slogan has been hijacked by the terrorists, but it has been in existence a long time before these terrorists/extremists have been in Pakistan. The takfiri elements in the Armed Forces is being flushed out, & it is a continuous process.

 

[muse]

It is very clear to me: while a few Takfiri thoughts have managed to slip in the Armed Forces, most of the Army is invigored by the true spirit of Jihad, not with the concept of Takfiri Jihad preached by the terrorists. It is very simple: this slogan has been hijacked by the terrorists

Billu,

"True jihad"?? WTF? What is "True Jihad" and who the heck is doing "False jihad"??

See, there is no true or false Jihad - the problem is Jihad itself - there are no good communists and bad communists, the problem is communism. Now before the indignation translates into the impulse to murder, please consider what I am saying.

Jihad as a idea for the individual adherent is very different than it is for the state and it's institutions, isn't that so?? The individual adherent may accept it as a matter of or article of faith, even though, it is not an article of faith - -however, the state and it's institutions are not generally run on "articles of faith" and then again, not on the articles of faith of a particular religion and a particular sect -- do you really not see how this only serves to divide us?? See, if you are committed to the idea that all Pakistanis are equal before the law, why such exceptions?? In the thread about the little girl abuses by authorities in NJ, you have taken the position of equality before the law, why exceptions here??

Before getting bent out of shape, think about what I am saying -- is what I am saying, the idea that institutions and state are led by ideas that unite us, not divide us - and that articles of faith for the individual adherent are the business of the adherent and not the state, is that a idea that can unite us or divide us??

You say the slogan has been hijacked? Ok but explain why the ideology has not ?? See, they are both mouth "Jihad" what is the loser here other than the idea of Jihad and Islam? And is you are agreed, how smart of an idea is it to expose an entire faith to such???

 

[AmberDutt]

Think 100 times before you take a decision, But once that decision is taken, stand by it as one man.

--Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah Sahib

Pretty impractical way to work in today's environment where adaptability to changing scenarios is the name of the game.

PS: No disrespect intended towards the Quaid or his views..

 

[somebozo]

Even PFI openly collects funds in KSA during Ramadan and Eid and your government cant do crap to stop it.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

O Musey,

still waiting for the definition. Let me know when you are available to define what is ''army ideology'' as you see it. And how and in what way are cadets 'reared' into becoming wahhaby super ''Muzloums''

I look forward.

Pretty impractical way to work in today's environment where adaptability to changing scenarios is the name of the game.

PS: No disrespect intended towards the Quaid or his views..

it's even MORE practical today

 

[Rafi]

That's just the point I'm making - these officers are not pakistani as much as they are Ahmadi and Christian or whatever -- this focus on religion and sect is wrecking the army - Ali khan is a small example - in the "Internal Decay" thread, the point is made that every step the army wanted to take was leaked to the insurgents by other armymen

They are 100% Pakistani, they have risen through the ranks, because they are good officers not - for their religious or ethnic affiliation. An army as large as ours - is only going to reflect the larger society, but the Army has it's own checks and balances, that is why Brig Gen Ali Khan was detained.