Monkey Business

[VCheng]

Have you ever tried to setup a large factory aka private enterprise in Pakistan?

Just curious.

It is very easy.

You have to be related to the right people, and pay off some more right people. Then you get loans approved by some other right people, and then at the right time, you get those loans written off by the remaining right people. Then you get the business to run as close to a monopoly as you can get, so that all the right people get their share. Everybody wins.

Any questions?

 

[FaujHistorian]

It is very easy.

You have to be related to the right people, and pay off some more right people. Then you get loans approved by some other right people, and then at the right time, you get those loans written off by the remaining right people. Then you get the business to run as close to a monopoly as you can get, so that all the right people get their share. Everybody wins.

Any questions?

My question was specific to @Hyperion post.

Please see that before adding your input. Thank you

 

[VCheng]

My question was specific to @Hyperion post.

Please see that before adding your input. Thank you

Who needs private enterprise anyway? Let the Army run it all. Problem solved.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Who needs private enterprise anyway? Let the Army run it all. Problem solved.

As I said, my question was specific to a post. Please respond to it if you can.

Why to thrown rocks just for fun.

Thanks.

 

[VCheng]

As I said, my question was specific to a post. Please respond to it if you can.

Why to thrown rocks just for fun.

Thanks.

Look, I have pointed out the great distortions within Pakistan due to the involvement of the military in commercial enterprises, no matter how justified, many times. While my present comments may seem frivolous to you, they do contain an element of resignation. If Pakistanis accept all the justifications trotted out every time (run for welfare, pay taxes, supports military families, Military Inc is a lie etc etc), and any criticism is forcibly suppressed, then why should anybody else bother to counter it? After all, North Koreans believe that the sun shines of their Great Leader's behind and nobody can convince them of anything different. Same case here.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Monkey Business
...

The article raises a few different related, but distinct, issues.

1. Should the military be involved in running non-security/defence related businesses, or any commercial enterprises for that matter?

2. Is the military control and ownership of the Okara farms legal under current law
Corollary: Current legal status nowithstanding, was the military control/ownership of the Okara farms obtained illegally/unethically from local residents at some point in the past?

3. Assuming the military ownership/control of the Okara farms is legal, has any former or current government made promises to transfer control/ownership of the farms to local residents/workers?

4. Are the facts related to the use of force on the farms correct, and if they are, what was the justification behind the use of force? Was the use of force legal, unnecessary, excessive etc?

The author in the piece above conflates all these issues into a single tirade against the military. The military may be in the wrong, but in order to determine that their needs to be a dispassionate and objective analysis of all the factors involved,

 

[Bratva]

Lagta hai mere rishtedar kisi aur fauj main naukri kar rahay thay!!!

Did COAS gets more perks on retirement ? like that large farm house of Musharraf ?

 

[Bratva]

Mate, this is not a molehill.................. let's not be blinded by what the military actually has become............. TTP maybe the biggest threat to private citizens, however, the biggest threat to private enterprise is the armed forces........... let's for once call a spade a spade.................

Things that go on in this country in the name of 'security'............... and the apologists............... LOL................

Looking at chinese private enterprises , Huwaei is established by Ex-Chinese General and it's one of the largest corporations in world now . Despite ill intentions of generals, they are efficient in running their corporations.

Like this civil contractor company

Kingcrete Builders (Private) Limited

Though there were rumours of a certain Lt.Gen Amjad Shoaib, Malik Riaz and this kingcrete company business nexus, earning commissions on road projects, construction projects

But we know Malik Riaz delivers. Frontier works delivers but after taking their cuts

 

[Jango]

The article raises a few different related, but distinct, issues.

1. Should the military be involved in running non-security/defence related businesses, or any commercial enterprises for that matter?

Hey Agno...good to see you back..

This question has been answered many times in the past and I don't think warrants another answer.

2. Is the military control and ownership of the Okara farms legal under current law
Corollary: Current legal status nowithstanding, was the military control/ownership of the Okara farms obtained illegally/unethically from local residents at some point in the past?

As it goes, the military was given control of these lands in British times (all within the legal framework of that time) with the consent of the local population. A small portion of the military incomes also went to the farmers in the area whose land was taken. After partition the military kept control of these lands and it has continued ever since.

3. Assuming the military ownership/control of the Okara farms is legal, has any former or current government made promises to transfer control/ownership of the farms to local residents/workers?

If it is legal, why should the government make a promise to transfer ownership? Or did you wanted to write "illegal"?

4. Are the facts related to the use of force on the farms correct, and if they are, what was the justification behind the use of force? Was the use of force legal, unnecessary, excessive etc?

I've seen a lot of reports regarding this issue. From what I gather, the farmers first stopped the irrigation supply to the military farms and when a Army party went to restore it, they resorted to pelting stones and fighting with other means. A couple of soldiers also got injured. As a consequence of this, a couple of fatalities also occurred. A sad loss of life definitely.

But to determine the cause, we need to go deep into the role every party had to play that day. What the farmers did, what Army did etc?

Maybe the farmers went for the gun of a soldier? Maybe the farmers tried to kill a soldier with an axe or something? Maybe the farmers threatened the soldiers in some other way? Or on the other side, maybe a soldier did kill a farmer for absolutely no reason at all and he killed a farmer from 300 yards just for fun with a scope on his G-3, just to improve his aiming? Or maybe a Major thought it would be fun to kill a guy with his newly acquired scope and then post it on facebook because the Major sahib has nothing else to do in his office!

It's always more than what meets the eye, especially in Pakistan.

 

[VCheng]

I've seen a lot of reports regarding this issue. From what I gather, the farmers first stopped the irrigation supply to the military farms and when a Army party went to restore it, they resorted to pelting stones and fighting with other means. A couple of soldiers also got injured. As a consequence of this, a couple of fatalities also occurred. A sad loss of life definitely.
But to determine the cause, we need to go deep into the role every party had to play that day. What the farmers did, what Army did etc?
Maybe the farmers went for the gun of a soldier? Maybe the farmers tried to kill a soldier with an axe or something? Maybe the farmers threatened the soldiers in some other way? Or on the other side, maybe a soldier did kill a farmer for absolutely no reason at all and he killed a farmer from 300 yards just for fun with a scope on his G-3, just to improve his aiming? Or maybe a Major thought it would be fun to kill a guy with his newly acquired scope and then post it on facebook because the Major sahib has nothing else to do in his office!
It's always more than what meets the eye, especially in Pakistan.

So when can we expect an honest and open inquiry into this matter so that justice can be provided to the aggrieved party, whichever side it may be?

 

[Jango]

So when can we expect an honest and open inquiry into this matter so that justice can be provided to the aggrieved party, whichever side it may be?

It isn't in my powers to give a suitable answer to that question.

 

[VCheng]

It isn't in my powers to give a suitable answer to that question.

Such an inquiry would be the correct thing to do, but of course things are done very differently in Pakistan. The matter will probably be dealt with in the traditional way. Nothing wrong with that either.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If it is legal, why should the government make a promise to transfer ownership? Or did you wanted to write "illegal"?

I meant to write "legal" - the point I am making is that even if the current military control/ownership of the farms is legal, the government of the day (since the military itself is technically subordinate to the government) may have made some sort of promise/statement along the lines of transferring ownership/control to the local residents. Any such promise/statement etc. may not have grounds to be enforceable (unless the transfer of land was documented) if the current government does not support it, but it is worth looking into to try and understand why (if the media coverage is correct) the locals have such strong grievances against the military.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa’s book Military Inc — Inside Pakistan’s Military Economy provides an insight into the powerful, vast and expansive empire that the Pakistani Military has set up in Pakistan over the past six decades. Not surprisingly, the book, published in June 2007 is banned in Pakistan.

The book estimates the military’s share of the economy at over 20 billion dollars, (2007) besides owning 11.58 million acres of land.

What has happened in Pakistan is that any sector which could be monopolized, has been taken hold of by the military. The military is entrenched in the corporate sector. The list of industries where military or ex-military personnel are in charge include steel mills, sugar factories, cement factories, fertilizer factories, cereal factories, banks, logistics companies, construction companies, utilities, even universities and other higher education institutions.

Today the Pakistan military’s internal economy is extensive, and has turned the armed forces into one of the dominant economic players. The most noticeable and popular component of military business relates to the business ventures of the four welfare foundations: the Fauji Foundation (FF), Army Welfare Trust (AWT), Shaheen Foundation (SF) and Bahria Foundation (BF). These foundations are subsidiaries of the defense establishment.

What is interesting is that retired and serving officers run secretive industrial conglomerates, manufacture everything from cement to cornflakes, and own 12m acres of public land, says Dr Ayesha Siddiqa.

Of the 96 businesses run by the four largest foundations, only nine file public accounts. The generals spurn demands by parliament to account for public monies they spend.

According to the book, the biggest and the most visible perk is the rural and urban land given out to serving and retired officers. They also get subsidies and other benefits to develop the land. A major-general can expect to receive on retirement a present of 240 acres of prime farmland, worth on average 1.1 million dollars as well an urban real estate plot valued at 1.4 million dollars. The Pakistan military, as a single group, owns more land than any other institution or group, amounting to about 12 per cent of total state land. And unlike other state institutions, the military can convert this land for private usage.

Good for the Generals but bad for the ordinary citizen of Pakistan. As the saying goes, "Every Country has an Army, but Pakistan Army has a country"!

P.S. I have quoted from Dr. Ayesha Siddiqa’s book, Military Inc — Inside Pakistan’s Military Economy. So please don't train your guns on me. Troll her instead!!

Ayesha has done tremendous job in terms of collecting data.

My only issue is that she is kind of myopic in her general views about Pak army.

Pak army is part of a military industrial complex that serves the needs for both the active and retired soldiers' needs.

These organizations are run professionally and non-army pakistanis support them with their money and their business.


Sadly, our educated elite is too combative about anyone who doesn't fall within their personal definition of good guys.

Hope you understand it.

So when can we expect an honest and open inquiry into this matter so that justice can be provided to the aggrieved party, whichever side it may be?

Farmers is incorrect term.

These are contractors working for the military.

Now If you higher a contractor, and he becomes belligerent, then he is crossing the line.

The only thing a contractor should do is quit the job if the payment is not upto his needs.

.

I meant to write "legal" - the point I am making is that even if the current military control/ownership of the farms is legal, the government of the day (since the military itself is technically subordinate to the government) may have made some sort of promise/statement along the lines of transferring ownership/control to the local residents. Any such promise/statement etc. may not have grounds to be enforceable (unless the transfer of land was documented) if the current government does not support it, but it is worth looking into to try and understand why (if the media coverage is correct) the locals have such strong grievances against the military.

bhai

military foundations' ownership is legal.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

military foundations' ownership is legal.

I am not stating otherwise (since I am not aware of anything at this point to suggest otherwise) - I am merely trying to get readers to analyze the situation from different (and more specific) directions.

The author of the piece in the OP, for example, just lumped multiple issues into one and churned out a tirade against the military.