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Mazagon sees opening in submersible drift

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Offers to make more Scorpene submarines.

With India's submarine acquisition programme tangled in a decade-old logjam, defence shipyard Mazagon Dock Ltd (MDL) has staked claim for Project 75I, a line of six advanced submarines for the Indian Navy.

MDL is already building Project 75, for six Scorpene submarines, using technology from Armaris, the Franco-Spanish shipbuilder. It believes the decision-making paralysis that has stymied Project 75I will allow MDL to build at least three, and possibly six, more Scorpenes after completing Project 75.
Project 75I is in the doldrums, after three Ministry of Defence (MoD) committees failed to zero on the Indian shipyards capable of participating in such a project. Besides MDL, already engaged in Project 75, Larsen & Toubro is competing fiercely for Project 75I, flaunting its role in building INS Arihant, the country’s first nuclear submarine. As time has passed without a decision, new contenders, particularly Pipavav Shipyard and the MoD's newly-acquired Hindustan Shipyard Ltd have also emerged as contenders.

Meanwhile, the MoD is more fuddled than ever after its third and latest high-power committee, headed by

V Krishnamurthy, chairman of the National Manufacturing Competitiveness Council, failed to agree on which shipyard(s) should be awarded Project 75I. The MoD is currently pondering the Krishnamurthy committee's divided recommendations. An earlier MoD decision to build three Project 75I submarines at MDL, one at HSL and two in the private sector or abroad now stands scrapped.

With tendering nowhere in sight, the chief of MDL, Vice Admiral (retd) H S Malhi, says their Project 75 Scorpene production line provides a handy springboard for Project 75I. MDL, as Malhi notes, has the facilities, the experience, the workmen and an ongoing workflow that make it easy to extend the six-Scorpene order of Project 75, improving the specifications if the navy so requires.

Malhi mobilises a powerful financial argument: India has already paid Rs 6,000 crore for Scorpene technology. Building additional Scorpenes would only require the payment of licence fees. Choosing another design would require paying for technology afresh.

“If the tender for Project 75I is going to be delayed by another two-three years, we can easily extend the current Scorpene order by another three submarines. Else, Project 75I could be a Scorpene-plus, a more potent submarine, with Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and the ability to launch missiles. The technology we have already paid for would be amortised over a larger number of submarines, making these cheaper,” he argues.

BACKGROUND
Sections of the Indian Navy would welcome more Scorpenes quickly, in the face of a worrisome submarine build-up by China and Pakistan. However, a powerful lobby within the navy, which favours Russian submarines, opposes extending the Scorpene order. They have a potent political argument against ordering more Scorpenes, that Project 75 was not competitively bid but was a controversial, single-vendor purchase. Enlarging the order would be fraught with political risk.

Further, going by the navy's 30-year Submarine Construction Plan, which the apex Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) okayed in 1999, Project 75I must build Russian submarines. The 30-year plan for constructing 24 conventional submarines in India envisages two simultaneous construction lines: one building six submarines from western technology and another building six submarines from eastern bloc (i.e. Russian) know-how. Based on the experience gathered, India would build another 12 submarines to an indigenous design.

Project 75, for six Scorpenes, is the western technology line. The next six must incorporate Russian technology, according to the 30-year plan. Indian Navy submarine folklore believes Russian designs feature greater endurance and firepower; while western designs are stealthier and harder to detect. Indian designers are to incorporate the best of both traditions into the 12 indigenous submarines.

MDL faces flak for a three-year delay in Project 75, but Malhi has strongly defended his shipyard's record. Admitting the first Scorpene would indeed be delivered three years late (in mid-2015, instead of 2012), Malhi says he will deliver the remaining five submarines at eight-month intervals instead of the 12-month interval originally planned. That means all six Scorpenes will be delivered by September 2018, just nine months later than the scheduled completion of Project 75.

MDL plans to achieve this by setting up a second Scorpene line at a recently acquired shipyard, the Alcock Yard, within its premises in Mumbai. After mid-2013, all six submarines will be outfitted simultaneously, the first three in the current workshop, and the next three in Alcock Yard.

Mazagon sees opening in submersible drift
 
@Indian Navy submarine folklore believes Russian designs feature greater endurance and firepower;


Hope Indian Navy select the type German 214 submarines as the next line and not russian types.
 
@Indian Navy submarine folklore believes Russian designs feature greater endurance and firepower;


Hope Indian Navy select the type German 214 submarines as the next line and not russian types.

Well logic behind that comes from our experience in operating both Type 209 and Kilo class Subs simultaeously
Interesting thing which was noticed was that Kilo class were more capable in operating in Indian ocean over long time as well as deployment in in pasific as well as atlantic ocean

While Type 209 was more suitable for the warm waters of Arabian Sea
Also Kilo class carry Klub S Cruise missiles
As part of Submarine upgrade programme ,in order to extend life of some of the subs ,
India has decided to Upgrade 6 Kilo class Subs and 2 Type 209 Subs , which will extend there life till 2025
Out of this 4 upgraded Kilo class have been recieved by India ,while 2 are undergoing MLU ie 1 in India , 1 in Russia . Deal to upgrade 2 Type 209 subs was signd early this yr
 
Infact I would be more happy if India were to choose Amur/Lada class Subs , since they not only will have AIP , with Russians willing to assist DRDO in developing its own AIP SYSTEM , but it will also be capable of carrying Hypersonic Brahmos cruise missiles
Compared to that , much smaller Type 214 and Scorpene class can only have either AIP or Brahmos , though they can have Exocet antiship missiles apart from AIP , But exocets cannot sink ShiLang if it enters Bay of Bengal.
 
Most probably the no. of Scorpenes will be increased and the next line of sub will go to russians.. They are offering a real killer machine.. LADA class with AIP and VLS will be one deadly sub..
 
Most probably the no. of Scorpenes will be increased and the next line of sub will go to russians.. They are offering a real killer machine.. LADA class with AIP and VLS will be one deadly sub..

U are right about that Even I hope that We order 3 additional scorpenes and give P75I to Russians for Amur/Lada class
According to My Navy buddies India Need to Sign P75I by 2013 or order additional scorpenes by 2013 coz Indian Navy will Be forced to Retire 12 Subs between 2014-24 and at present we only have 6 Scorpene and 4 Arihant on order , while 1-2 Akula that we get from Russia will have to be returned by 2022-23 since they are only meant for training and stop gap

IndianNavy projections currently point at a fleet of 15 Subs by 2020 against a requirement for 18 Subs by 2020 and 24 Subs by 2027 , any additonal order will only help us in achieving the requirement of 18 Subs by 2020
Since we dont want to be faced with a situation that Pakistans goast guard navy having 9 subs compared to India s fleet of 15 subs , as u know that currently PN has 5 Subs compared to Indian Navy with 14 Subs , and i would like us to mentain that edge
 
can someone tell me which of the Russian sub is being offered.
Is it the LADA class,Amur Class or S-1000???......I am sure LADA will not be offered, but what abt the rest 2..
 
Infact I would be more happy if India were to choose Amur/Lada class Subs , since they not only will have AIP , with Russians willing to assist DRDO in developing its own AIP SYSTEM , but it will also be capable of carrying Hypersonic Brahmos cruise missiles
Compared to that , much smaller Type 214 and Scorpene class can only have either AIP or Brahmos , though they can have Exocet antiship missiles apart from AIP , But exocets cannot sink ShiLang if it enters Bay of Bengal.

First of all, the Russians are also only in the stage of developing an own AIP system, while Germany and even France have it operational, which should make clear that we would get more help for DRDO from them.
Secondly, so far not a single sub can carry AIP propulsion and Brahmos VLS combined, be it the Lada class, or the Scorpenes, they either can add a module for the AIP propusion, or the Brahmos. It was reported that IN asked German HDW about integration of Brahmos on U214, but never heared anything about it again.

For Scorpenes, maybe they offer these too:

MBDA - e-catalogue


can someone tell me which of the Russian sub is being offered.
Is it the LADA class,Amur Class or S-1000???......I am sure LADA will not be offered, but what abt the rest 2..

Amur is AFAIK the export version of the LADA class and the S-1000 which was proposed, was based on the same Amur class as well, but with some European weapons and techs included. So basically they are all the same sub, with different techs and weapons, but according to the last reports it's only the Amur class that is on offer now, against the U214 and Scorpene.
 
6 subs with Western tech.....6 subs with Russian tech.....and 12 subs with Indian tech....

All talk and no action on the ground.....meanwhile Indian submarine building capability is lying vacant.
 

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