Manufacture of the first Saudi-Brazilian turbo jet engine

[Philip the Arab]

there is no chance of it from Chinese

For Pakistan maybe, but most of the world especially in MENA there is a high chance of sanctions and vetoes when exporting products using engines from EU/USA.

 

[Turan09]

Put simply, SANCTIONS.

Agree with you.

there is no chance of it from Chinese

Today, no. But what about tomorrow? What if your relation with chinese gets worse? Or what will happen in a big scale war? Is china gonna give you engines in time?
There is so many possibilities. For me, I won't gamble about my national security.

 

[Philip the Arab]

@Turan09
Seems it is also geared towards UAVs?
The TF-1200 is a single spool low-bypass mixed exhaust turbofan. It features a unique cutting-edge fan technology. The single stage fan Tandem blades provides a pressure ratio of up to 1.92 resulting in a high performance propulsion system capable of providing 1200 lbf of thrust with low fuel consumption. It has been designed to be a low cost power plant for long range cruise missiles and military UAVs.


GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS

• Type: Single spool low-bypass mixed exhaust Turbofan
  
• Length: 1200 mm
  
• Diameter: 360 mm
  
• Dry weight: 90 kg
  
• Maximum uninstalled thrust: 5.33 kN @SSL
  
• Specific fuel consumption: 0,68 kg/Kgf/h
  
• BPR: 1:1

COMPONENTS

• Fan: Transonic single twin blade stage Fan
  
• Compressor: 5 axial stages
  
• Combustors: Annular
  
• Turbine: 2 axial stages

 

[Turan09]

@Turan09
Seems it is also geared towards UAVs?
The TF-1200 is a single spool low-bypass mixed exhaust turbofan. It features a unique cutting-edge fan technology. The single stage fan Tandem blades provides a pressure ratio of up to 1.92 resulting in a high performance propulsion system capable of providing 1200 lbf of thrust with low fuel consumption. It has been designed to be a low cost power plant for long range cruise missiles and military UAVs.


GENERAL CHARACTERISTICS

• Type: Single spool low-bypass mixed exhaust Turbofan
  
  
• Length: 1200 mm
  
  
• Diameter: 360 mm
  
  
• Dry weight: 90 kg
  
  
• Maximum uninstalled thrust: 5.33 kN @SSL
  
  
• Specific fuel consumption: 0,68 kg/Kgf/h
  
  
• BPR: 1:1

COMPONENTS

• Fan: Transonic single twin blade stage Fan
  
  
• Compressor: 5 axial stages
  
  
• Combustors: Annular
  
  
• Turbine: 2 axial stages

TF-1200? So they designed another engine?
My logic says ''You can't use same engine in both UAV's and Cruise missiles (except Kamikaze UAV's and jet target drones)''
But we will see... But of course, SA shoud design and produce A cruise missile and UAV for this first.
Still it is weird for me to see, a country trying to produce engines before product. Normaly you produce product with a proven engine, and after that you design your engine...

 

[Philip the Arab]

TF-1200? So they designed another engine?
My logic says ''You can't use same engine in both UAV's and Cruise missiles (except Kamikaze UAV's)''
But we will see... But of course, SA shoud design and produce A cruise missile and UAV for this first.
Still it is weird for me to see, a country trying to produce engines before product. Normaly you produce product with a proven engine, and after that you design your engine...

No, it was a developed product given via TOT to allow KSA to get technology and knowledge from Brazilian company TurboMachine to engineers I think. I agree that it is odd, but maybe there is a secretive cruise missile project in development that we don't know about.

But, honestly I'm not sure if product was in development or if product was completed since @The SC announced it last November and it was in development. Don't think just assembling would take a year to announce completion.

 

[JamD]

Maybe. @JamD would know

I can only guess like everyone else. Initially I believe they were Ukrainian engines because sales were traced through open source documents. I will concur with with @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that currently we are probably making turbojets locally. Turbojets for cruise missiles and target drones only need to run for a short time and only once so they can be made with less advanced metallurgy so it isn't such a stretch that we're making them. Probably a Ukranian design that we are producing locally. One possible reason this isnt advertised might be because it is an unlicensed copy because otherwise there would be little reason not to advertise and sell it. But that's just pure conjecture on my part.

 

[Turan09]

No, it was a developed product given via TOT to allow KSA to get technology and knowledge from Brazilian company TurboMachine to engineers I think. I agree that it is odd, but maybe there is a secretive cruise missile project in development that we don't know about.

Very likely. Otherwise I don't see a reason to develop an engine without a product... You are most probably right.
Now the question is, how much Tot they got? For example, when we started to design KTJ-3200. Our biggest problem was single chystal Turbine blades of engine... We were ready to pay a lot of money for this heat resistant blades, but no one (Not even Ukraine) didn't wanna sell the knowlege about this blades... Ismail Demir, said ''We tried a lot but no one didn't sell the knowlege, not even Ukraine. They wanted to sell blades but not the knowlege how to produce it''
So we solved it ourselves with a lot of hard work. We designed our own single chystal Turbine blades ourselves. So now let's just ask, did brazil give them the critical technology that we couldn't brought it (Even we were ready to pay a lot) Or simply did they give blades to KSA but not the knowlege how to produce it?

 

[Philip the Arab]

Very likely. Otherwise I don't see a reason to develop an engine without a product... You are most probably right.
Now the question is, how much Tot they got? For example, when we started to design KTJ-3200. Our biggest problem was single chystal Turbine blades of engine... We were ready to pay a lot of money for this heat resistant blades, but no one (Not even Ukraine) didn't wanna sell the knowlege about this blades... Ismail Demir, said ''We tried a lot but no one didn't sell the knowlege, not even Ukraine. They wanted to sell blades but not the knowlege how produce it''
So we solved it ourselves with a lot of hard work. So now let's ask yourself did brazil give them the critical technology that we couldn't brought it (Even we were ready to pay a lot) Or simply did they give blades to KSA but not the knowlege how to produce it?

That is a good question that I probably won't be able to answer, but you have to ask why the project took over a year? Just assembling kits would take way less than a year and most probably included education, machinery, and metallurgy techniques being transferred but again we most probably won't know. We will have to find out more about the engine, and hopefully see videos of production facilities.

 

[Turan09]

That is a good question that I probably won't be able to answer, but you have to ask why the project took over a year? Just assembling kits would take way less than a year and most probably included education, machinery, and metallurgy techniques being transferred but again we most probably won't know. We will have to find out more about the engine, and hopefully see videos of production facilities.


That is a good question that I probably won't be able to answer, but you have to ask why the project took over a year? Just assembling kits would take way less than a year and most probably included education, machinery, and metallurgy techniques being transferred but again we most probably won't know. We will have to find out more about the engine, and hopefully see videos of production facilities.

I believe, ''over a year'' is still very short time for a engine. We worked 5-6 years for PD170 and it was piston engine not a Turbojet... So engines are very... tricky...
If they produced this only in ''over a year'' I think it is mostly assemble. After all you still need to educate the enginners and over a year is like I said, is very short time. But even that is a great way to gain knowlege. A right step to right direction.
And like you said, we can not be sure. This is just my personel opinion. We will probably gonna learn more after some time...

 

[Philip the Arab]

I believe, ''over a year'' is still very short time for a engine. We worked 5-6 years for PD170 and it was piston engine not a Turbojet... So engines are very... tricky...
If they produced this only ''over a year'' I think it is mostly assemble. After all you still need to educate the enginners and in over a year is like I said, is very short time. But even that is a great way to gain knowlege. A right step to right direction.
And like you said, we can not be sure. This is just my personel opinion. We will probably gonna learn more after some time...

I found this, maybe this could assist in our predicament. Translated from Arabic test.

It is a project to transfer and localize the technology of cervical jet turbine engine 500-TKF in cooperation with an external partner. This project is part of the initiative of transfer and localization of transport technology and logistics services. This project aims to study the turbo type engines design and manufacture, as well as training and development of national , With equipping a local facility with the latest equipment. The project consists of several stages: development, design, manufacturing and assembly, and finally the testing phase.


In the long run, Brazil is a good ally for KSA because it has the largest Arab diaspora, and is trying to join OPEC.

 

[Turan09]

I found this, maybe this could assist in our predicament. Translated from Arabic test.

It is a project to transfer and localize the technology of cervical jet turbine engine 500-TKF in cooperation with an external partner. This project is part of the initiative of transfer and localization of transport technology and logistics services. This project aims to study the turbo type engines design and manufacture, as well as training and development of national , With equipping a local facility with the latest equipment. The project consists of several stages: development, design, manufacturing and assembly, and finally the testing phase.

I really don't think you can do all of this in few years... Even with a partner, you can't design a Turbojet that quicly... A customised version of existing engine for SA is much more logical...
Like we did for Ukranian Motor Sich Engines... (Turkey will have a different version of it for Akıncı UCAV's... and we will produce/assembe in Turkey)
Still there is no way to be sure...

 

[Philip the Arab]

I really don't think you can do all of this in few years... Even with a partner, you can't desine a Turbojet that quicly... A customised version of existing engine for SA is much more logical...
Like we did for Ukranian Motor Sich Engines... (Turkey will have a different version of it for Akıncı UCAV's... and we will produce/assembe in Turkey)
Still there is no way to be sure...

How long would it take someone who already studied engine manufacturing to master the production anyway? Isn't most of the knowledge learned in the uni itself?

 

[Turan09]

How long would it take someone who already studied engine manufacturing to master the production anyway? Isn't most of the knowledge learned in the uni itself?

Short anwer. A long time.
Engines are not like other systems... I mean, today you can produce an engine in your garage. Some people design and produce engines for their model planes...
But, there is a big but, producing an engine that can work between ''60 degrees Celsius and -40 degrees Celcius'' for years in the desert or siberia without a problem... It is one of hardest thing in a engine. You must be perfect in metallurgy... Today even china with all this money and engineers still uses russian engines, and Pakistan didn't want to use their WZ-16 engine in JF-17... Because it's life span is only half of the Russian engine...
Turkey worked 6 years for a piston engine. Now we are using it in Our Anka and Aksungur UCAV's... But still we have to work with Ukraine for a Turboprop engine... For now...

 

[Philip the Arab]

@Turan09
Well, in conclusion even if the engine isn't 100% manufactured in KSA it is still a good development that increased Saudi knowledge of engines many fold and have made it one of the few nations that can produce and hopefully develop indigenous engines. At least engine can be used for future Saudi projects without having to rely on EU/USA/Russia/China and putting all of your eggs in one basket.

That company KACST has over 1000 employees and seems like it is working on a lot of innovative projects like this helicopter. KSA needs to get non-US/EU engine, and electronics though.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I can only guess like everyone else. Initially I believe they were Ukrainian engines because sales were traced through open source documents. I will concur with with @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that currently we are probably making turbojets locally. Turbojets for cruise missiles and target drones only need to run for a short time and only once so they can be made with less advanced metallurgy so it isn't such a stretch that we're making them. Probably a Ukranian design that we are producing locally. One possible reason this isnt advertised might be because it is an unlicensed copy because otherwise there would be little reason not to advertise and sell it. But that's just pure conjecture on my part.

My general belief is that if there are any foreign partners, we won't talk about them. There's really no point in putting South Africa, Ukraine, Brazil, etc in the spotlight if they're indeed helping us (especially since they're MTCR members). Moreover, we wouldn't want anything with their DNA on it outside of our soil in a pristine state, you just never know who the end-user could be with such sales.