Macedonia and Greece: Clashes in Athens over neighbour's name change

[Yankee-stani]

Protesters have clashed with police in the Greek capital Athens at a big rally to oppose the government's deal with Macedonia on changing its name.

Police fired tear gas at some of those attending a protest which attracted tens of thousands to the city.

The deal, which is yet to be approved, designates Greece's northern neighbour as Republic of North Macedonia.

The name Macedonia is sensitive for many Greeks who say it implies a claim on the Greek province of the same name.

Years of wrangling finally brought an agreement last June between Greece's left-wing Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his Macedonian counterpart.

A vote on the deal, which aims to end a 28-year row between the nations, is set to take place in the Greek parliament this week.

The dispute dates back to 1991 and the break-up of Yugoslavia. Macedonia was a Yugoslav republic and adopted the name Macedonia when it became an independent nation.

Greece has long argued the use of the name implied a territorial claim and cultural appropriation. At the UN the country was formally known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom).


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Earlier this month Macedonia ratified the deal on the name change to the Republic of North Macedonia.

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionMr Tsipras has faced sharp opposition over the plan
Greek opposition figures argue Mr Tsipras has made too many concessions.

• Full story: What's in a name?
• The man who has focused on one word for years

Last week he narrowly survived a vote of no confidence after his junior coalition partner withdrew support.

Some members of the Greek parliament have received death threats intended to influence their vote.

What happened on Sunday?
Organisers had said as many as 600,000 people were expected to take part in Sunday's demonstrations.

The actual numbers fell far short - with police estimating 60,000 in the capital at 14:00 local time (12:00 GMT).

Image copyrightEPA
Image captionThe protests attracted a wide range of participants
People had travelled from across the country to demonstrate close to the national parliament.

Demonstrators in the capital on Sunday chanted, "Macedonia is Greek" and waved Greek flags.

A number of clerics, dressed in black, were among those taking part.

• Macedonia country profile
• Greece country profile
• Why the row over Macedonia runs so deep

"We cannot stomach this deal, to give away our Macedonia, our history," a 67-year-old protester at the scene, Amalia Savrami, told Reuters.

Image copyrightREUTERS
Image captionThere were scenes of confrontation in places
At one point, scuffles broke out near parliament when masked demonstrators threw stones and fireworks at police.

Police blocked gas-mask-wearing protesters from storming steps leading to parliament.

A highway was also temporarily blocked in northern Greece in solidarity with the protesters, reports say.

Why is the name change controversial?
Greek nationalists argue that the name Macedonia can only refer to the Greek province of the same name.

The dispute has led to Greece to blocking Macedonia's hopes of joining Nato and the European Union.

• Greece resumes Macedonia flights
• The makeover that's divided a nation

Under the deal, the country's language would be Macedonian and its people known as Macedonians (citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia).

The move has met with sharp resistance in both countries because nationalists believe it erodes their identity.

 

[zectech]

Turkey should announce on April First (April Fools Day), that Turkey will rename itself the Eastern Roman Empire, to troll the Greeks.

There are real problems in the world, including the Greek Debt Crisis, and what drives the Greeks to the streets in mass is - North Macedonia, which is the proper term for the country.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Turkey should announce on April First (April Fools Day), that Turkey will rename itself the Eastern Roman Empire, to troll the Greeks.

There are real problems in the world, including the Greek Debt Crisis, and what drives the Greeks to the streets in mass is - North Macedonia, which is the proper term for the country.

Greece should focus on getting its TFR high and getting the migrants out

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Protesters have clashed with police in the Greek capital Athens at a big rally to oppose the government's deal with Macedonia on changing its name.

Police fired tear gas at some of those attending a protest which attracted tens of thousands to the city.

The deal, which is yet to be approved, designates Greece's northern neighbour as Republic of North Macedonia.

The name Macedonia is sensitive for many Greeks who say it implies a claim on the Greek province of the same name.

Years of wrangling finally brought an agreement last June between Greece's left-wing Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and his Macedonian counterpart.

A vote on the deal, which aims to end a 28-year row between the nations, is set to take place in the Greek parliament this week.

The dispute dates back to 1991 and the break-up of Yugoslavia. Macedonia was a Yugoslav republic and adopted the name Macedonia when it became an independent nation.

Greece has long argued the use of the name implied a territorial claim and cultural appropriation. At the UN the country was formally known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (Fyrom).


ADVERTISEMENT
Earlier this month Macedonia ratified the deal on the name change to the Republic of North Macedonia.

Image copyrightAFP
Image captionMr Tsipras has faced sharp opposition over the plan
Greek opposition figures argue Mr Tsipras has made too many concessions.

• Full story: What's in a name?
• The man who has focused on one word for years

Last week he narrowly survived a vote of no confidence after his junior coalition partner withdrew support.

Some members of the Greek parliament have received death threats intended to influence their vote.

What happened on Sunday?
Organisers had said as many as 600,000 people were expected to take part in Sunday's demonstrations.

The actual numbers fell far short - with police estimating 60,000 in the capital at 14:00 local time (12:00 GMT).

Image copyrightEPA
Image captionThe protests attracted a wide range of participants
People had travelled from across the country to demonstrate close to the national parliament.

Demonstrators in the capital on Sunday chanted, "Macedonia is Greek" and waved Greek flags.

A number of clerics, dressed in black, were among those taking part.

• Macedonia country profile
• Greece country profile
• Why the row over Macedonia runs so deep

"We cannot stomach this deal, to give away our Macedonia, our history," a 67-year-old protester at the scene, Amalia Savrami, told Reuters.

Image copyrightREUTERS
Image captionThere were scenes of confrontation in places
At one point, scuffles broke out near parliament when masked demonstrators threw stones and fireworks at police.

Police blocked gas-mask-wearing protesters from storming steps leading to parliament.

A highway was also temporarily blocked in northern Greece in solidarity with the protesters, reports say.

Why is the name change controversial?
Greek nationalists argue that the name Macedonia can only refer to the Greek province of the same name.

The dispute has led to Greece to blocking Macedonia's hopes of joining Nato and the European Union.

• Greece resumes Macedonia flights
• The makeover that's divided a nation

Under the deal, the country's language would be Macedonian and its people known as Macedonians (citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia).

The move has met with sharp resistance in both countries because nationalists believe it erodes their identity.

This is a 'bruh" moment right here

 

[@@@]

Cough Cough India

 

[Yankee-stani]

This is a 'bruh" moment right here

If you go to Astoria,Queens in NYC you will see sighs say Macedonia is Greece and Turks out of Cyprus lol I mean countries fight over water, oil and land yet Greece fights over a name wow @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Dewaneh

Cough Cough India

India and Pakistan are typical land disputes this is a dispute over a f..cking name

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

If you go to Astoria,Queens in NYC you will see sighs say Macedonia is Greece and Turks out of Cyprus lol I mean countries fight over water, oil and land yet Greece fights over a name wow @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Dewaneh



India and Pakistan are typical land disputes this is a dispute over a f..cking name

Not the same Greeks as before, thses are scavengers fighting over the bones of the actual Greeks.

 

[Yankee-stani]

Not the same Greeks as before, thses are scavengers fighting over the bones of the actual Greeks.

Comparing Modern Greece to Ancient Greece is probably the most stupid thing you could do

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Comparing Modern Greece to Ancient Greece is probably the most stupid thing you could do

Ya, pretty much and its obvious

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

If you go to Astoria,Queens in NYC you will see sighs say Macedonia is Greece and Turks out of Cyprus lol I mean countries fight over water, oil and land yet Greece fights over a name wow @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Dewaneh



India and Pakistan are typical land disputes this is a dispute over a f..cking name

That’s because Greeks got the best deal out of the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Half of Cyprus, and even some Turkish islands.

 

[Yankee-stani]

That’s because Greeks got the best deal out of the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Half of Cyprus, and even some Turkish islands.

still lost Constantinople lol and Megali Hellas was never implemented

 

[dBSPL]

Turkey should announce on April First (April Fools Day), that Turkey will rename itself the Eastern Roman Empire, to troll the Greeks.

There are real problems in the world, including the Greek Debt Crisis, and what drives the Greeks to the streets in mass is - North Macedonia, which is the proper term for the country.

(trivia : There is a great tragedy at the origin of the 1 April tradition. On April 1, I prefer not to joke, but to mourn.)

Ottoman Empire was the new Roman Empire from 15.century onwards. Sultan Mehmed's most famous tittle was Kayzer-i Rum.

Although all of Anatolia was Turkified from Seljuks, the Ottoman state grew primarily in Balkans. The Ottoman rule of Anatolia was only completed in the 17th century. The complete Balkan dominance ( with serbs , bosinaks, macedons, greks, bulgars, moldovians, gagavuz, romans, albanians, pechenegs and kumans, part of magyars etc.) was accomplished two hundred years ago.

The second ruler of the Ottoman Empire Orhan Bey's wife is the daughter of the Roman emperor. And this kinships were united with other marriages.

The Fener Greek Patriarchate lost nothing of its glory during the Ottoman period. It was the common center of Eastern Christianity until the beginning of the Russian hegemony.

The Greeks were our friends, with all its ethnics. Curiosities can investigate why the Ottoman Empire took the island of Cyprus. Greek Cypriots who seek help from the Ottoman Empire due to the Lusignan Catholic repression. Likewise, it is necessary to know the extent to which the Crusades have harmed the eastern Christians. Turkish sovereignty was a protection shield against european bigotry. Not just Ottomans but many turkic state in ME.

However, the rigid nationalism currents that emerged after the French Revolution have ended this friendship ties. France, Russia and England began to undertake engineering studies over Ottoman nations.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

still lost Constantinople lol and Megali Hellas was never implemented

Those were unrealistic goals to begin with. Greeks are not predisposed to fighting as Turks are.

(trivia : There is a great tragedy at the origin of the 1 April tradition. On April 1, I prefer not to joke, but to mourn.)

Ottoman Empire was the new Roman Empire from 15.century onwards. Sultan Mehmed's most famous tittle was Kayzer-i Rum.

Although all of Anatolia was Turkified from Seljuks, the Ottoman state grew primarily in Balkans. The Ottoman rule of Anatolia was only completed in the 17th century. The complete Balkan dominance ( with serbs , bosinaks, macedons, greks, bulgars, moldovians, gagavuz, romans, albanians, pechenegs and kumans, part of magyars etc.) was accomplished two hundred years ago.

The second ruler of the Ottoman Empire Orhan Bey's wife is the daughter of the Roman emperor. And this kinships were united with other marriages.

The Fener Greek Patriarchate lost nothing of its glory during the Ottoman period. It was the common center of Eastern Christianity until the beginning of the Russian hegemony.

The Greeks were our friends, with all its ethnics. Curiosities can investigate why the Ottoman Empire took the island of Cyprus. Greek Cypriots who seek help from the Ottoman Empire due to the Lusignan Catholic repression. Likewise, it is necessary to know the extent to which the Crusades have harmed the eastern Christians. Turkish sovereignty was a protection shield against european bigotry. Not just Ottomans but many turkic state in ME.

However, the rigid nationalism currents that emerged after the French Revolution have ended this friendship ties. France, Russia and England began to undertake engineering studies over Ottoman nations.

Turks treated Greeks and Armenians with the utmost respect. In fact, many Turks today have ancestry from these two groups due to Islamization.

You can see this in how positively they are portrayed in Turkish tv shows and movies.

This is the beauty of Turkish culture, their accepting nature which turns enemies into friends again and again.

Greek nationalist hate against Turks could only happen once most Greeks did not intermingle with Turks on a regular basis. It was created by the enemies of the Ottomans over a long period of time and lots of planning. Same for the Armenians.

 

[dBSPL]

Those were unrealistic goals to begin with. Greeks are not predisposed to fighting as Turks are.



In fact, many Turks today have ancestry from these two groups due to Islamization.

I'm sorry, but it is a great historical ignorance to think that pre-Islamic Turkish Anatolia is composed of only Armenian and Greek peoples. The fact is that both peoples were never the dominant ethnic identity in Anatolia.

The Sumerians were Greeks? Was the Hittites Armenian? Troyas was macedons ?

Have you examined the pre-Islamic Turkic European migrations ? Do you have any idea about linguistic research with the Ural Altay language group ?

Or come to closer era : Have you ever studied 13th century marco polo research? These are the first scientific examples about the ethnic identity of Anatolia. Turcomans expression was used for the first time for Anatolia.

This is just one dimension of the Anatolian ethnic background. Let's look at the development in the period of Turko-Islamic rule.

Along with the Seljuk period, almost all Oghuz Turks flocked to Anatolia over time. Before the Oghuz-Seljuk period, many Turkic tribes established states at todays Egypt, Syria and Iraq.

In the Ottoman period, the Ottoman Empire fought against the Turkic states in the Eastern Anatolia until the 16th century. We did not fight the Armenians. The Turks fought with the Turks. Have you ever heard of Uzun Hasan? Are you really sure you know the history of Anatolia?

There is also an integration with the ethnic harmony that the Ottomans had in the Balkans.

Just a litlle example:

Magyars were probably were one of the tribes within the Turkic majority Hun peoples and later under Avars and Bulgars. They shared common beliefs and lifestyle with Turks before finally stationing in Hungary. There are many Turkish words from the early period.

After that Magyars lived 150 years under Ottoman empire where a sizable population converted to Islam. Those who converted left Hungary for Turkish territory in the Balkans and Anatolia after the disasterous 1683–1699 war. There are many Hungarian origin Bosnian Muslim families. So there is further kinship during the Ottoman era. There was a sympathy between two nations in the 19th Century when romantic nationalism was rising. Hungarians were interested in a common Turanian heritage with the Turks, when being a Turk at the time was more closely .

Everyone talks about the Greek people who migrated from Anatolia after the Lausanne Treaty. But, after the wars in the 19th century, millions of Muslims migrating from the Balkans to Anatolia? Im not talk about two million Balkan Muslims according to Treaty of Lausanne . I'm talking about a hundred years of great immigration. Which of you said anything about this? One of them is my father-side family. We left our house behind us and took refuge in Anatolia.

***



One of the most important features of the Turks is that they have a culture that knows and lives in harmony with other nations. Memluks, Zengids, Mughal civilization and Safavids are some examples.

For this reason, many Turkish nations have lost their ethnic characteristics. Bulgarians are one of the most important examples, but there are many other nations in eastern Europe and in Russia who have lost their Turkishness. But for you, there are only Armenians and Greeks relatives. I'm sorry, but that's so stupidly.

Libya, Algeria Kulogullari or Egyptian Turks. You do not seem to know that the Ottomans have encouraged their migration to the Moorish region for maritime soldiers(Levent) and in this way millions of Anatolian Turks settled in Africa over the centuries.

We have always believed in the common destiny of our geography. The genetic diversity offered by the Anatolian geography today is the clearest indication of this. Those who claim to be rootless because of this genetic diversity also accuse them of fascism and barbarism. What kind of contradiction is that? The fact is that the Ottoman Empire was an empire from the 14th century onwards, and the survival of this government could be realized with respect for multiculturalism. If the Arabs were dominant in Anatolia, (they would not last a hundred years, but let's imagine it), there may be no trace of the Armenian nation today.

You can believe what you want. But without referring to any historical thesis, here you cannot manipulate a nation's roots according to your personal ideas.