Ma Ying-jeou, Taiwan’s pro-China president, wins reelection

[TruthSeeker]

Pure democracy is not a successful system. One needs to balance the rights of the "majority", i.e., the collective nation, with the rights of an individual. That's why a successful "democracy" will be one that has a constitution that has mechanisms (the genuine rule of law) to protect certain basic individual rights. First and for most is the right to private (individual) property. Without that, the mob can, and will, take away from the hard-working and frugal person, the fruits of his labor. Without that, the economic system does not benefit from the yearning of individuals to provide for their immediate families and their future generations.

 

[oct605032048]

I dont know which democracy is successful, but I am sure the one in current Mainland is not a successful one.

I use to be critic about government and a liberalist when I was in college in Beijing. I always looked at the things they didn't do well. But when I came to the States, I really understand what Premier Zhou once said "I'm a Chinese first, then a communist". I'm not a communist because I don't think Marx' very basic assumption about human nature really works. But only after one came out of China could he find out how difficult and how impressive that the people and the governments from 1949 to today have achieved in the past 60 years (or to be more specific, the recent 30 years). Something that we took for granted (such as 10% growth for 30 years) are really miracle in most parts of the world.

Yes. If they hadn't going on the wrong way before 1978 we'd be better. But unless someone can go back change the history that is what we had at that time. If someone is really should be blamed, it is Chiang not Mao.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Yes. If they hadn't going on the wrong way before 1978 we'd be better. But unless someone can go back change the history that is what we had at that time. If someone is really should be blamed, it is Chiang not Mao.

Mao was a megalomanic. Honestly, how can you blame Chiang for what happened in China after 1949. Mao systemmatically destroyed all of the other leaders of China, with the exception of Chou En Lai, for personal grandisement. Mao's personal demons held China back for 30 years.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Mao was a megalomanic. Honestly, how can you blame Chiang for what happened in China after 1949. Mao systemmatically destroyed all of the other leaders of China, with the exception of Chou En Lai, for personal grandisement. Mao's personal demons held China back for 30 years.

Under the KMT and the Qing Dynasty, we were brutalized and exploited by all the foreign powers.

Chiang Kai-shek, instead of trying to fight off the Japanese invasion, preferred to hunt down Communists instead. He had to be kidnapped by his own people before he would see reason.

It was the PRC who stopped China from being a puppet of the foreign powers. It was under the PRC that China finally regained its sovereignty.

Yes, Mao did make a lot of mistakes, and his economic policies were bad. However, he is still the person who founded the PRC, and for that he is respected.

 

[TruthSeeker]

It was the PRC who stopped China from being a puppet of the foreign powers. It was under the PRC that China finally regained its sovereignty.

Yes, Mao did make a lot of mistakes, and his economic policies were bad. However, he is still the person who founded the PRC, for better or worse.

Yes, what you say is true. But still, how can you (or mr. oct ... above) blame Chiang for the excesses of events such as the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution? Surely you have to lay the "mistakes", the incredible brutality, at Mao's doorstep, and not Chiang's.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Yes, what you say is true. But still, how can you(or mr. oct ... above) blame Chiang for the excesses of events such as the Great leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution? Surely you have to lay the "mistakes", the incredible brutality, at Mao's doorstep, and not Chiang's.

For those, yes. Those were not the mistakes of Chiang, but of Mao.

 

[SinoChallenger]

Surprised that Noda is pro-China; vaguely remember reading otherwise.

He signed this, which is a huge blow to US prestige, and a huge gain for pan-Asian economic integration.

China-Japan Currency Deal Points Way to New Monetary Order: View - Bloomberg

Mainland can achieve so many successes after our open-and-reform since 1978, one main factor is that China has taiwan and HK. They are the good example of mainland and we did learn so many good things from them.

I agree. Mainland China can learn from Taiwan traditional Chinese culture, and learn from Hong Kong how to interact with the West without being taken advantage of.

IMHO, China is incomparable to the "basket-case" countries of Africa. The success of China in the past two decades is because the Chinese people are "first world" in their capability to absorb and advance the most cutting edge technologies. Chinese mastery of science and engineering is totally incomparable to the mastery of such things by Africans in Africa. Therefore, I truly believe that the mainland Chinese public is, today, capable of participating in self-government. Further, I believe, that with a good PRC Constitution, that balances individual rights and "national" interests, the improvement of Chinese society would be taken to a whole new level, to the betterment of the lives of individual PRC citizens. I believe that your fear of the ability of your fellow Chinese citizens to handle more political freedom and responsibilities is misplaced and is, frankly, paternalistic.

Actually, Taiwan has only just now successfully run an election like the developed world. Until very recently, Taiwan "democracy" was just a mess -- legislative fist-fights, fake gunshots, real gunshots, vote buying..... a perfect example of why Chinese are not ready for liberal democracy.

We can conclude from Taiwan's transformation that Chinese people are not ready for liberal democracy until GDP / capita reaches the same level as Taiwan today ($21,832). Back in the days of Chen Shui-Bian, when Taiwan politics was a total mess, the GDP / capita was ~$13,000.

Today, Shanghai's GDP / capita is $11,238 and Beijing's GDP / capita is $11,218. When Beijing and Shanghai's GDP / capita reaches ~$22,000, then it's time to offer local elections. Assuming China keeps growing rapidly, this will take ~10 years.

Today, China's GDP / capita is $5,184. When it reaches ~$22,000, then it's time to offer national elections. Assuming China keeps growing rapidly, this will take ~25 years. So, China will be ready to be a liberal democracy around 2037.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We can conclude from Taiwan's transformation that Chinese people are not ready for liberal democracy until GDP / capita reaches the same level as Taiwan today ($21,832). Back in the days of Chen Shui-Bian, when Taiwan politics was a total mess, the GDP / capita was ~$13,000.

Today, Shanghai's GDP / capita is $11,238 and Beijing's GDP / capita is $11,218. When Beijing and Shanghai's GDP / capita reaches ~$22,000, then it's time to offer local elections. Assuming China keeps growing rapidly, this will take ~10 years.

Today, China's GDP / capita is $5,184. When it reaches ~$22,000, then it's time to offer national elections. Assuming China keeps growing rapidly, this will take ~25 years. So, China will be ready to be a liberal democracy around 2037.

That sounds logical to me.

Though the end result (20+ years from now) will not be Western-style liberal democracy, but a unique system that will be something like a Chinese democracy.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Though the end result (20+ years from now) will not be Western-style liberal democracy, but a unique system that will be something like a Chinese democracy.

I am now 66 years old. So, by the time China is "capable" of liberal democracy, I may have assumed room temperature. Pity. I would very much like to see what "Chinese democracy" looks like. Perhaps if I keep going to the gym, and eat a diet of fish and rice, I can hold out to see the denouement of this great experiment.

BTW, do you think that the "one-child" policy may possibly have created internal contradictions in Chinese demographics that will confound this inexorable progress?? I.e., creating a confounding inter-generational conuduram in 20+ years?

 

[SinoChallenger]

That sounds logical to me.

Though the end result (20+ years from now) will not be Western-style liberal democracy, but a unique system that will be something like a Chinese democracy.

Absolutely. Even so called "democracy" is not one size fits all. USA wasn't even a democracy until blacks could vote. European continetal system is totally different from the US system. Taiwan's system is completely different from the Western systems too -- government function is divided into 5 "yuan."

I could see CCP transforming into a one-party democracy first, similar to the Russian United Russia Party or Japanese Liberal Democratic Party, instead of a two party (US) or multiple party (European continental) system. This could, conceivably, take place after 10 years of Xi Jinping administration.

 

[Sonyuke_Songpaisan]

I use to be critic about government and a liberalist when I was in college in Beijing. I always looked at the things they didn't do well. But when I came to the States, I really understand what Premier Zhou once said "I'm a Chinese first, then a communist". I'm not a communist because I don't think Marx' very basic assumption about human nature really works. But only after one came out of China could he find out how difficult and how impressive that the people and the governments from 1949 to today have achieved in the past 60 years (or to be more specific, the recent 30 years). Something that we took for granted (such as 10% growth for 30 years) are really miracle in most parts of the world.

Yes. If they hadn't going on the wrong way before 1978 we'd be better. But unless someone can go back change the history that is what we had at that time. If someone is really should be blamed, it is Chiang not Mao.

Go and ask the majority of the communists in China, most of them dont believe in communism. what they do is to protect the interests of the 利益集团 not the people or the country.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

I am now 66 years old. So, by the time China is "capable" of liberal democracy, I may have assumed room temperature. Pity. I would very much like to see what "Chinese democracy" looks like. Perhaps if I keep going to the gym, and eat a diet of fish and rice, I can hold out to see the denouement of this great experiment.

Well, if you really want to see it sooner rather than later, then you can pay a visit to places like Taiwan/Singapore/Hong Kong.

Though the latter two are not true democracies. Singapore is a hybrid, and Hong Kong has no universal suffrage (we can't elect our top leaders). So Taiwan would probably be your best bet.

BTW, do you think that the "one-child" policy may possibly have created internal contradictions in Chinese demographics that will confound this inexorable progress?? I.e., creating a confounding inter-generational conuduram in 20+ years?

Hard to say. Though I am sure that the Government will relax the one-child policy as time goes on. In fact, it has been done in several areas already.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Absolutely. Even so called "democracy" is not one size fits all. USA wasn't even a democracy until blacks could vote.

Hey! Do you realize that black men got the vote in 1865, but American women couldn't vote until 1920! Also, at first, only men owning a certain amount of real property could vote. Voting in the USA has always been governed by each State and qualifications varied from State to State until the US Civil Rights movement in the 1960's brought about Supreme Court rulings and new laws that made voting qualifications more uniform across the 50 states.

 

[Sonyuke_Songpaisan]

He signed this, which is a huge blow to US prestige, and a huge gain for pan-Asian economic integration.

China-Japan Currency Deal Points Way to New Monetary Order: View - Bloomberg




I agree. Mainland China can learn from Taiwan traditional Chinese culture, and learn from Hong Kong how to interact with the West without being taken advantage of.




Actually, Taiwan has only just now successfully run an election like the developed world. Until very recently, Taiwan "democracy" was just a mess -- legislative fist-fights, fake gunshots, real gunshots, vote buying..... a perfect example of why Chinese are not ready for liberal democracy.

We can conclude from Taiwan's transformation that Chinese people are not ready for liberal democracy until GDP / capita reaches the same level as Taiwan today ($21,832). Back in the days of Chen Shui-Bian, when Taiwan politics was a total mess, the GDP / capita was ~$13,000.

Today, Shanghai's GDP / capita is $11,238 and Beijing's GDP / capita is $11,218. When Beijing and Shanghai's GDP / capita reaches ~$22,000, then it's time to offer local elections. Assuming China keeps growing rapidly, this will take ~10 years.

Today, China's GDP / capita is $5,184. When it reaches ~$22,000, then it's time to offer national elections. Assuming China keeps growing rapidly, this will take ~25 years. So, China will be ready to be a liberal democracy around 2037.

fighting in congress is much better than suppressing the people. and what the image shows is normal in democracies.

 

[Tractor]

I do not care 1 party or two parties or even much more,for I am not a politician and China do not need too much politicians.
I just care about that autocratic things among the company level social-economic structures which most of the labors situated in.