Let's Liberate the Americans!!!

[jhungary]

Don't know, you said asking for stuff, what stuff? Somethings you can't have, yea, but what stuff, specifically?

Like buying house, like getting a loan, like getting a job.

You don't NEED to carry ID in China, or anywhere, but it's a good idea, nobody stops you and check ID, but if you are doing something that need ID, is it not a good Idea to have ID.

I don't know about China, but you are require to carry ID in Hong Kong by law. Police will check your ID and Once I was on a bus in Tuen Mun and they stop the whole bus and check for ID. To be fair, those measure are brought forward from Colonial Time, but still.

I get what you are saying and I'm not defending it, personally, I'm not fine with the government spying, I pay tax, that should cover it, what I do is my business. If it's for security? Figure it out without doing it, my money is hard earned, so should yours.

But at the end of the day, Chinese people who grew up in China, accustomed to RenRen instead of Facebook, Weibo instead of Twitter, 非诚勿扰, instead of the bachelor, they don't feel that difference that you and I do.

Again, not defending it, just saying it like it is.

I can see why you said that, as I said, if you do not care about anything, China/Hong Kong is a good place to live. So it's up to you, just I care about those thing, hence I said what I said, by the way, I neither use Twitter and Facebook. I had the account but they were abandon for a long time.

**** is blocked, but there are perverts anywhere, so we are safe here, no government has the power to control a 16 year old with a computer.

It wasn't last time I was in China, anyway, just using it as an example, not really interest in going to that topic...

Did you go to a Chinese school or HK or foreign school? I won't call it brainwashing, but the culture is very different.

And you should, China is not a finished product, but it's not a rich North Korea either.

This is primarily a thread that answers to all those ridicules accusations that fly around, you been on this forum, you know what I'm talking about.

I been both, I went to international school like before high school China for middle school, but I went to a band 5 high school and took my HKCEE and HKALE like everybody else. I know the ins and outs of Hong Kong and China, I live there.

Yes, sometime the west have a weird way on looking China, and most people I know in the west actually adore China, lol that does not mean I have to love Chinese Government, or so do they. And to be fair, most of the misunderstand is done by how the government of China portrait China, but meh, it's their country, I am not at liberty to say anything.

Should China be more free of course, but at this point it's the teenager and the adult debate, we should strive to be the adult and realize what's not going to happen isn't going to happen and spend our time constructively, but we should have the choice to be the unreasonable teenager.

However, without having that ability and the fact, we are adults, it's not an ideal situation, but it's not the end of the world.

Problem is, yes, nobody's perfect all I can say was, if I don't like the ruling party in America, I simply would just vote for another party, or in Australia or in Sweden, but in China, if I don't like about CCP, there are nothing else I can choose, so I did what most people, sensible people did, leave, instead of staying in China and bitch about it...it don't work like that and do no good on the country.

Hence I said I am not a fan for student movement either.

The only problem I have with Genesis is that he starts threads on absolute stupid premises and then jhungary is invited by these stupid premises to talk big.

dude, I understand what he wanted to do with this thread and this is actually very nice of him to do it, I just say why I left China and if you have a problem of what I think, well, you can ignore me, and there are probably nothing else you can do about it.

 

[Genesis]

I usually try but you put your sh!t front and center.

click on my username and then click ignore on the card.

Don't like it, don't read, it's as simple as that.

lol. damn man, be easy with him. Jeez, i can only guess how you're like with your students !!

no problem, free country, don't like it, tough, I'll get over it, like my main man Stephen A Smith always says.

Like buying house, like getting a loan, like getting a job.

Can't buy a house? Or loan?

I don't know about China, but you are require to carry ID in Hong Kong by law. Police will check your ID and Once I was on a bus in Tuen Mun and they stop the whole bus and check for ID. To be fair, those measure are brought forward from Colonial Time, but still.

That has never happened to me once or to anyone I know.

I can see why you said that, as I said, if you do not care about anything, China/Hong Kong is a good place to live. So it's up to you, just I care about those thing, hence I said what I said, by the way, I neither use Twitter and Facebook. I had the account but they were abandon for a long time.

It's not so much not caring, do you celebrate any Jewish holidays? It's not as if you don't care, it's just it's not something that you grew up with, and it's not something that's in your mind that you must do.

I been both, I went to international school like before high school China for middle school, but I went to a band 5 high school and took my HKCEE and HKALE like everybody else. I know the ins and outs of Hong Kong and China, I live there.

Well there is still a difference really, though not important.

Yes, sometime the west have a weird way on looking China, and most people I know in the west actually adore China, lol that does not mean I have to love Chinese Government, or so do they. And to be fair, most of the misunderstand is done by how the government of China portrait China, but meh, it's their country, I am not at liberty to say anything.



Problem is, yes, nobody's perfect all I can say was, if I don't like the ruling party in America, I simply would just vote for another party, or in Australia or in Sweden, but in China, if I don't like about CCP, there are nothing else I can choose, so I did what most people, sensible people did, leave, instead of staying in China and bitch about it...it don't work like that and do no good on the country.

Hence I said I am not a fan for student movement either.

This actually isn't about the government, just China in general, life in China, you know how it is on these forums, apparently we are living in hell and the only heaven is across the Himalayas.

As to not a student movement fan, what are you, triad or paid mainland troll, which are you, be honest.

 

[jhungary]

Can't buy a house? Or loan?

Not that I can't buy a house or get a loan, what I mean is the policy to govern that, I have 2 house in Hong Kong and 1 shared with my sibling in China already, I am feet dry, for all I care, buying house and getting a loan do not concern me, I am using it as an example.

That has never happened to me once or to anyone I know.

lol, this is the word of advice from hong kong Government

http://www.gov.hk/en/residents/immigration/idcard/hkic/faq_hkic.htm

You must keep your card in proper condition, and carry it with you at all times after you have attained the age of 15 years. If the card is lost, destroyed, damaged or defaced, you must apply for a new card at a Registration of Persons Office within 14 days, or within 14 days of your return if it is lost or damaged outside Hong Kong. Recovered cards must be surrendered to a Registration of Persons Office or police station.

and this is the law

CAP 115 IMMIGRATION ORDINANCE s 17C Carrying and production of proof of identity

Under section 17C of the Immigration Ordinance, every Hong Kong resident who is aged 15 or above is required to carry proof of identity. This usually means an identity card. It is an offence to fail to produce proof of identity on demand to a police officer or immigration officer. However, in practice, persons are unlikely to be prosecuted if they are found without an identity card when they are near their home.

Once you hit 15, it's a must

It's not so much not caring, do you celebrate any Jewish holidays? It's not as if you don't care, it's just it's not something that you grew up with, and it's not something that's in your mind that you must do.

Jewish is probably not a good example, I have Jewish relative. I see your point tho, but then again, I like this is my choice, not someone to tell me care or not care or can or can't.

Well there is still a difference really, though not important.

Well, just that people don't think I understand lol, but then I live in China and Hong Kong, and I am still part of China and Hong Kong, and that's what I think.

This actually isn't about the government, just China in general, life in China, you know how it is on these forums, apparently we are living in hell and the only heaven is across the Himalayas.

As to not a student movement fan, what are you, triad or paid mainland troll, which are you, be honest.

lol, but it's because of the Chinese Close door (not on the market) policy, people don't understand the real China, and the west portrait China like the Muslim portrait their own religion against the extremist, and then they come back and try to play victim card. That's something people should not do.

lol I am just an old HK resident ranting, I am neither triad nor pay stooge

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

lol. damn man, be easy with him. Jeez, i can only guess how you're like with your students !!

I was actually rated above average. I'm an easy grader even if I talk shit in class and students like my sarcasm. I just don't like ppl talking big.

 

[Yizhi]

i knew what would happen to this thread. i'm already tired of this kind debate so i'll just do the fact checking.
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In your China, political dissidents are imprisoned, and please do not even attempt to deny it, while in the US, our political dissidents are celebrated and often became millionaires. Talking about politics is not the same thing as using speech to point out ideological/institutional flaws. Simple question: 'Why does China not allow competing political parties ?' That is and have been the core of political dissatisfaction for many in China. That question goes beyond 'hating politics'. If it is so benign, then why not allow competing political parties and let the Chinese voters decide ?

our political dissidents are already celebrated and often became millionaires in the West, you give them all the glory they need.
no serious competing political parties is NOT and have NEVER been the core of political dissatisfaction for many in China, corruption is.

No people do not talk openly or criticize their government. It happens but rarely. The English speaking will explain when asked that most Chinese simply do not have exposure to anything other than local matters or what the party chose to disseminate in vernacular.

hello there, have you been on Chinese internet? that's where we do all the trash talk and trolling the gov. learn Chinese and go through Chinese websites, if you are actually interested in Chinese politics.

Ah, let's talk about the party. 99.9% of Chinese cannot even become eligible to become members of the CPC.

you do realize CCP has 80 million members, which is about the population of Germany? and now does it sound small or 'under-representative' to you? approximately 7 million of them are civil servants (not CCP can also be civil servants). where are the other 70+ million? secretly monitoring the ppl?

Xi wants to end corruption. Great. Until they fix this problem of zero franchise for 99.9% of their population, CORRUPTION IS THE ONLY SYSTEM THEY GOT! How else do you become a CPC member? Why else do you wanna be a CPC member?

give me one system DOES NOT have corruption, and i'll go for it. India and Russia showed us how corrupt 'multi-party election system' (i don't like to use the word democracy, it's been abused for so long) could be.
usually one joins CPC in college, it's a tedious program. other ways exist, but i don't know much about those.
you join because you are eyeing political career as your future, some join, some not.

But they are quite bad handling diversity and they certainly cannot handle democracy yet.

about diversity: political views now range from 'completely copy the West, US is god, China needs 300 years of western colonization' to 'Mao is god, love class struggle, rich people bad'. most of us sit in the middle and so does CCP.

But not yet. China is still a 'Walmart-supplier economy' and India is still a 'fix social justice democracy'.

i see nothing wrong being Walmart's supplier. it worked. and 'Walmart-supplier economy' only consist of a rather small proportion of our economy, you are still living in pre-financial crisis era if you believe that's all China is today.

Just ask any of the millions of migrant workers how they are allowed to stay in the industrial city and what 'rights' they have.

they have a piece of land to fall back to if they loose their jobs. city dwellers do not.

There is ONE party in China.

actually we have 8 other parties. many teachers and medical professionals join those ones.

One cannot just walk to a party office and join.

what's party office? you lost me.

Then what you really, really got pissed at is the government, they do as they please, Many Chinese now, here on PDF and IRL singing praise about CCP cause they are heading in the right direction (Actually not quite) so the "No-body-can-Challenge-them-dictatorship" is nothing but a moot point. But well, what if the country start going down hill? It will be like you are in a car when you know how to drive, but all you can do is look at the driver head toward a wall lol. What's the word for it? Helpless.

this is a deeper question of how Chinese acknowledge our relationship with the state. and we need to ask ourselves questions like 'do we actually know how to drive' and 'does changing the seat make it any easier or more efficient'.

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@Genesis salute to your effort bringing some interesting topics into the English speaking world. you can dress as the CCP, and i can play the non-CCP part. this is fun.

 

[Lux de Veritas]

USA is increasingly becoming a shit country. Her elites forever give reasons why it is good to have illiterate, no healthcare..etc. Her prison is full.

I do not know why people are able to let USA elites talk themselves out that it is ok for Cuba have better life expectancy and infant mortality.

USA is also a place where landlord preyed on hardworking citizen by means of regulation. It is difficult to explain for such a big country, Silicon Valley house must cost US1 million. Meanwhile Houston is just US$100k.

Her elite also sit by and see infrastructure rot unless there is profit to make from it.

Che is a mad and wicked man no doubt and he killed a lot. But one must not forget the among first thing Che does is to break Cuba Medical Cartel by opening up lots of vacancies in medical schools.

Cuba has better healthcare despite embargo by USA.

In USA, the elites try to control med school enrollment so that doctors profit while people die.

Che's work save more people than he killed.

 

[jhungary]

this is a deeper question of how Chinese acknowledge our relationship with the state. and we need to ask ourselves questions like 'do we actually know how to drive' and 'does changing the seat make it any easier or more efficient'.

umm, you have a good point there, the problem, at least the problem I sees is not whether or not the citizen should take politic into their own hand, like Swiss style democracy. I don't want too represent my country, hence I vote for senator, congressman and MP. In deed I am all for the willing and able for their job, but what I see Chinese Political system is, that they are going to go in one direction and one direction only, there are no minority, no opposition for that ruling party.

Don't get me wrong, some time this could have been a blessing, I believe any country would do more if without the constant political party bickering, but the fact is, when and if you eliminate the opposition altogether, then there are no check on the current system, it would make you wonder, what if the country is heading into the wrong direction??

Look, a few weeks ago, I started a post describing how one man desire can make 100 million people suffer, using the Chinese CCP system would only encourage that, and that is what I think and what I don't like about the Chinese Political System.

 

[Yizhi]

umm, you have a good point there, the problem, at least the problem I sees is not whether or not the citizen should take politic into their own hand, like Swiss style democracy. I don't want too represent my country, hence I vote for senator, congressman and MP. In deed I am all for the willing and able for their job, but what I see Chinese Political system is, that they are going to go in one direction and one direction only, there are no minority, no opposition for that ruling party.

Don't get me wrong, some time this could have been a blessing, I believe any country would do more if without the constant political party bickering, but the fact is, when and if you eliminate the opposition altogether, then there are no check on the current system, it would make you wonder, what if the country is heading into the wrong direction??

Look, a few weeks ago, I started a post describing how one man desire can make 100 million people suffer, using the Chinese CCP system would only encourage that, and that is what I think and what I don't like about the Chinese Political System.

i get your point. but i disagree on the 'no minority, no opposition' part, which is usually the most misleading information you can get from Western media. the power balancing and consensus forming process inside CCP is as fierce as in any other country. CCP by the way how it functions challenges the definition of 'the ruling party' in Western democracies, which is very problematic when one tries to analyzing Chinese politics using contemporary political terminology.

and for developed rich countries, 'do no harm' is more important. they have everything to lose.
while for China, 'do more good' is crucial for the catch up game.

 

[jhungary]

i get your point. but i disagree on the 'no minority, no opposition' part, which is usually the most misleading information you can get from Western media. the power balancing and consensus forming process inside CCP is as fierce as in any other country. CCP by the way how it functions challenges the definition of 'the ruling party' in Western democracies, which is very problematic when one tries to analyzing Chinese politics using contemporary political terminology.

and for developed rich countries, 'do no harm' is more important. they have everything to loose.
while for China, 'do more good' is crucial for the catch up game.

well, yeah, maybe a no minority and no opposition is a hit hush, maybe i should say negligible minority and negligible opposition

 

[gambit]

our political dissidents are already celebrated and often became millionaires in the West, you give them all the glory they need.

I doubt that is their goal -- to be millionaires in the West -- when they decided to speak out.

no serious competing political parties is NOT and have NEVER been the core of political dissatisfaction for many in China, corruption is.

Good...Then why not allow the legal formation of competing political parties ? Is that your line of thinking, that since it is not necessary, ban it ?

 

[IPen]

what if the country is heading into the wrong direction

We have plenty of examples of "what if the country is heading into wrong direction", such as Japan,Taiwan,Italy and in fact most of the multiparty countries.I grow up witnessing how the CCP overcame one and another problems and reformed itself and responded to ppl wills, many of which outsiders(even as u HKers)can't not feel fully.Many of the China collapse Theories were not exactly pure BS but CCP eventually managed to deal with the issues.

Election is so natural in modern western cultrue that no elction is absolutely evil.But i must say this is one of the very few aspects that they are not open minded to.Tell me how can you really learn about a candidate thru TV?Letting a professional team to choose out a best leaders group and buliding mechanisms to prevent them from lack of supervision and to listen and respond to ppl's voice are also considerable.

Actually, i think average ppl talking about politics are not very different from they talking about celebities gossip. For example you talked about ID card inconvenience, but i bet you never researched carefully about why HK still did these and the viability of cancelling it.

China and CCP absolutely still have many evil things to bad mouth for, this's why i refused to apply to be a party member(It's a task of college to encourage students to apply) but i'm totally confident of the future of our country.

Maybe Chinese export is declining but exporting trolling is seeing an upward trend. China is no position to point to others. Under their communist regime China killed more of their OWN people than Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia combined. Unfortunately this sick communist mentality is still alive in China. With the economy going down like a rock in the water, the problems will only get bigger and eventually it will succumb.

Please tell me when did your great Turkey grow at 7%?

 

[atatwolf]

Please tell me when did your great Turkey grow at 7%?

You are still a third world country though.

 

[IPen]

You are still a third world country though.

We never deny this and we never brag like some others.
Look at your signature?

 

[Yizhi]

I doubt that is their goal -- to be millionaires in the West -- when they decided to speak out.

West provided the market. i don't blame them. Gordon Chang did sell lots of books for badmouthing China. smart strategy.

Good...Then why not allow the legal formation of competing political parties ? Is that your line of thinking, that since it is not necessary, ban it ?

i did mention 8 other political parties in China. so i'm not sure there is a 'ban'.
when it's not necessary, ban it or not doesn't matter to REAL life that 99.99% Chinese have, which is what i've been trying to say.

China and CCP absolutely still have many evil things to bad mouth for, this's why i refused to apply to be a party member(It's a task of college to encourage students to apply) but i'm totally confident of the future of our country.

it's interesting how we non-party members are here defending CCP and many of its policies. this is an area worth exploring.