Ladakh becomes seperate administrative division

[American Pakistani]

You haven't countered anything I said, just more verbal garbage. yes I know the Battle of CHawinda was the largest tank battle, but the reason why India attacked Lahore was to divert attention from Kashmir. It succeeded. Pakistan suffered a major and humiliating defeat at Khem Karan, and it was forced to retreat back behind the international border. Read about the Battle of Asal Uttar, when India bitch slapped the Pakistani invaders and captured all their tanks
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asal_Uttar


As for Kargil, that article has already been refuted several times on this forum. What makes you trust India nmedia all of a sudden? Point 5363 is not even in the Kargil sector, and it was only occupied by India temporarily. Pakistan only occupied point 5363 AFTER it withdrew from Kargil after getting its a*s kicked in a major military defeat, and that was in respose to Indian occupation of point 5310, point 4281, and point 5770. So if you want to count 5363 as Indian territory, well we captured strategic peaks in Pakistani territory, how do you respond to that? And if Point 5363 is so strategic, why hasn't Pakistan captured the Siachen HIghway? THe answer is it can't because 5363 is surrounded by Peaks India had captured from Pakistan. Looks like Pakistan has gotten humiliated once again. The only thing they have to show for losing 700 plus soldiers and withdrawing like cowards after suffering a major military defeat is one useless peak surrounded by Indian positions, and the loss of several strategic peaks to India. Some victory indeed

The fact is that you have not proven that Pakistan has won a single victory. At best you can claim a draw in 1965. Also in every war Pakistan has suffered more casualties despite having fewer soldiers. so much for slaughtering Indian Hindus.

Now be a good boy and run along, like how Pakistani soldiers run out of fear from dominant Indian soldiers every time the two armies face off.​

Like I said, I will say again for thick skull, in the 65 war Battle of Chawinda is the largest tank battle after ww2, in which entire Chawinda was converted into bharti tank graveyard. No such scale tank war ever fought. Khem karan was captured by Pakistani troops and you bharti terrorists had no access, you tried but several times your @$$3s were slaughtered and fed to vultures. Your invaders tried in Sialkot and Pakistanis cracked your head open, you planned and dreamt of having tea in Lahore but again Pakistan army slap you to real world and show you who is your real d@ di di why. Your terrorists in Sind who were trying to invade our province were thrashed by Sindhi population and they begged for mercy. Stop sking on fake history by your propaganda terrorists. The logic that you will never get under your thick skull.

For 99 war how Pakistan screw your terrorists like a b1tches, your Raja Saba themselves doing r rona like a dehati aurat.

• "Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

Following are the Kargil peaks captured by Pakistan in 1999

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Tiger Hill
  
• Dhalunag

Now following are the Kargil peaks still under Pakistani control as of 2018

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Dhalunag

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/debunking-kargil-myths-how-pakistan-captured-point-5353.566442/

The fact is that you have not proven that Pakistan has won a single victory. At best you can claim a draw in 1965. Also in every war Pakistan has suffered more casualties despite having fewer soldiers. so much for slaughtering Indian Hindus.​

Pakistani jet also made a world record of hunting 5 indian fighter jets in less than a minute.

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Like I said, I will say again for thick skull, in the 65 war Battle of Chawinda is the largest tank battle after ww2, in which entire Chawinda was converted into bharti tank graveyard. No such scale tank war ever fought. Khem karan was captured by Pakistani troops and you bharti terrorists had no access, you tried but several times your @$$3s were slaughtered and fed to vultures. Your invaders tried in Sialkot and Pakistanis cracked your head open, you planned and dreamt of having tea in Lahore but again Pakistan army slap you to real world and show you who is your real d@ di di why. Your terrorists in Sind who were trying to invade our province were thrashed by Sindhi population and they begged for mercy. Stop sking on fake history by your propaganda terrorists. The logic that you will never get under your thick skull.

For 99 war how Pakistan screw your terrorists like a b1tches, your Raja Saba themselves doing r rona like a dehati aurat.

• "Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

Following are the Kargil peaks captured by Pakistan in 1999

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Tiger Hill
  
• Dhalunag

Now following are the Kargil peaks still under Pakistani control as of 2018

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Dhalunag

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/debunking-kargil-myths-how-pakistan-captured-point-5353.566442/

I know that Chawinda was a major tank battle, and India failed to capture Lahore. That does not change the fact that Chawinda forced Pakistan to divert its soldiers from Kashmir, which enabled India to capture HAji pir pass.

And I already showed you that Pakistan was unable to capture Khem Karan because it got its a*s kicked in the battle of Asal Uttar. Did you even read the link I provided.

As for Kargil, obviously some officials within India's military objected to the way Kargil was handled. But you cannot deny these basic facts. Keep in mind many have tried to exploit their narrative on Kargil to score political points, like Nawaz Shariff did by claiming 4000 Pakistani soldiers were killed in the War.

1. All those peaks were on the loc. Prior to the war they were unoccupied by either side
2. the conflict with point 5363 was after Pakistan surrendered in Kargil
3. The only reason Pakistan occupied 5363 was because India captured point 5310, 4281, 5770, and others.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/reverse-kargil-capture-of-point-5310.449852/
4. As a result, point 5363 is surrounded by Pakistani peaks that were captured by India, negating its strategic advantage.
5. Pakistan never succeeded in cutting off India from Siachen, which means India won that war by default.

The details of which peaks were captured, who occupied the peaks prior to the war, etc are mostly trivial and can be debated separately. But let me ask you a simple question. If Pakistan captured the most stratetegic peak in the area, why didn't it cut of India from Siachen? Was it scared of getting its a*s kicked like it did the previous 4 times?

Like I said, I will say again for thick skull, in the 65 war Battle of Chawinda is the largest tank battle after ww2, in which entire Chawinda was converted into bharti tank graveyard. No such scale tank war ever fought. Khem karan was captured by Pakistani troops and you bharti terrorists had no access, you tried but several times your @$$3s were slaughtered and fed to vultures. Your invaders tried in Sialkot and Pakistanis cracked your head open, you planned and dreamt of having tea in Lahore but again Pakistan army slap you to real world and show you who is your real d@ di di why. Your terrorists in Sind who were trying to invade our province were thrashed by Sindhi population and they begged for mercy. Stop sking on fake history by your propaganda terrorists. The logic that you will never get under your thick skull.

For 99 war how Pakistan screw your terrorists like a b1tches, your Raja Saba themselves doing r rona like a dehati aurat.

• "Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

Following are the Kargil peaks captured by Pakistan in 1999

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Tiger Hill
  
• Dhalunag

Now following are the Kargil peaks still under Pakistani control as of 2018

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Dhalunag

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/debunking-kargil-myths-how-pakistan-captured-point-5353.566442/

Pakistani jet also made a world record of hunting 5 indian fighter jets in less than a minute.

Like I said, I will say again for thick skull, in the 65 war Battle of Chawinda is the largest tank battle after ww2, in which entire Chawinda was converted into bharti tank graveyard. No such scale tank war ever fought. Khem karan was captured by Pakistani troops and you bharti terrorists had no access, you tried but several times your @$$3s were slaughtered and fed to vultures. Your invaders tried in Sialkot and Pakistanis cracked your head open, you planned and dreamt of having tea in Lahore but again Pakistan army slap you to real world and show you who is your real d@ di di why. Your terrorists in Sind who were trying to invade our province were thrashed by Sindhi population and they begged for mercy. Stop sking on fake history by your propaganda terrorists. The logic that you will never get under your thick skull.

For 99 war how Pakistan screw your terrorists like a b1tches, your Raja Saba themselves doing r rona like a dehati aurat.

• "Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

Following are the Kargil peaks captured by Pakistan in 1999

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Tiger Hill
  
• Dhalunag

Now following are the Kargil peaks still under Pakistani control as of 2018

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Dhalunag

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/debunking-kargil-myths-how-pakistan-captured-point-5353.566442/

Pakistani jet also made a world record of hunting 5 indian fighter jets in less than a minute.

The fact that you are posting headlines about ONE battle to describe the war shows you have already lost the argument. Here is what the US Library of Congress has to say about the war.

"The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government. "
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+pk0152)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965#cite_note-USLib-29

From Devin Hagerty's South Asia in World Politics
"The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat."
https://books.google.com/books?id=l...gAhXiYN8KHXVfDawQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is what Gertjan Dijkink wrote in his book National Identity and geopolitical visions
"The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts."
https://books.google.com/books?id=z...gAhVuh-AKHSKfDt0Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


This is what South Asian historian Stanley Wolpert wrote:
"In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin. "

Virtually every neutral assessment written after the war was over showed that it was India that kcked Pakistan's A*s and humiliated it in front of the whole world.


With that being said, I do agree that the Pakistan Air Force outperformed the IAF thanks to its superior American aircraft.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I know that Chawinda was a major tank battle, and India failed to capture Lahore. That does not change the fact that Chawinda forced Pakistan to divert its soldiers from Kashmir, which enabled India to capture HAji pir pass.

And I already showed you that Pakistan was unable to capture Khem Karan because it got its a*s kicked in the battle of Asal Uttar. Did you even read the link I provided.

As for Kargil, obviously some officials within India's military objected to the way Kargil was handled. But you cannot deny these basic facts. Keep in mind many have tried to exploit their narrative on Kargil to score political points, like Nawaz Shariff did by claiming 4000 Pakistani soldiers were killed in the War.

1. All those peaks were on the loc. Prior to the war they were unoccupied by either side
2. the conflict with point 5363 was after Pakistan surrendered in Kargil
3. The only reason Pakistan occupied 5363 was because India captured point 5310, 4281, 5770, and others.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/reverse-kargil-capture-of-point-5310.449852/
4. As a result, point 5363 is surrounded by Pakistani peaks that were captured by India, negating its strategic advantage.
5. Pakistan never succeeded in cutting off India from Siachen, which means India won that war by default.

The details of which peaks were captured, who occupied the peaks prior to the war, etc are mostly trivial and can be debated separately. But let me ask you a simple question. If Pakistan captured the most stratetegic peak in the area, why didn't it cut of India from Siachen? Was it scared of getting its a*s kicked like it did the previous 4 times?



The fact that you are posting headlines about ONE battle to describe the war shows you have already lost the argument. Here is what the US Library of Congress has to say about the war.

"The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government. "
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+pk0152)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965#cite_note-USLib-29

From Devin Hagerty's South Asia in World Politics
"The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat."
https://books.google.com/books?id=l...gAhXiYN8KHXVfDawQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is what Gertjan Dijkink wrote in his book National Identity and geopolitical visions
"The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts."
https://books.google.com/books?id=z...gAhVuh-AKHSKfDt0Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


This is what South Asian historian Stanley Wolpert wrote:
"In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin. "

Virtually every neutral assessment written after the war was over showed that it was India that kcked Pakistan's A*s and humiliated it in front of the whole world.


With that being said, I do agree that the Pakistan Air Force outperformed the IAF thanks to its superior American aircraft.

Forget it.

He's gone into Trump mode.

 

[Pakistani E]

If those goat f*ckers are supposed to scare India, then we have nothing to worry about

Goat f*ckers vs Cow m*lesters. What an ultimate South Asian sh*t show we have going on here.

 

[American Pakistani]

I know that Chawinda was a major tank battle, and India failed to capture Lahore. That does not change the fact that Chawinda forced Pakistan to divert its soldiers from Kashmir, which enabled India to capture HAji pir pass.

And I already showed you that Pakistan was unable to capture Khem Karan because it got its a*s kicked in the battle of Asal Uttar. Did you even read the link I provided.

As for Kargil, obviously some officials within India's military objected to the way Kargil was handled. But you cannot deny these basic facts. Keep in mind many have tried to exploit their narrative on Kargil to score political points, like Nawaz Shariff did by claiming 4000 Pakistani soldiers were killed in the War.

1. All those peaks were on the loc. Prior to the war they were unoccupied by either side
2. the conflict with point 5363 was after Pakistan surrendered in Kargil
3. The only reason Pakistan occupied 5363 was because India captured point 5310, 4281, 5770, and others.
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/reverse-kargil-capture-of-point-5310.449852/
4. As a result, point 5363 is surrounded by Pakistani peaks that were captured by India, negating its strategic advantage.
5. Pakistan never succeeded in cutting off India from Siachen, which means India won that war by default.

The details of which peaks were captured, who occupied the peaks prior to the war, etc are mostly trivial and can be debated separately. But let me ask you a simple question. If Pakistan captured the most stratetegic peak in the area, why didn't it cut of India from Siachen? Was it scared of getting its a*s kicked like it did the previous 4 times?



The fact that you are posting headlines about ONE battle to describe the war shows you have already lost the argument. Here is what the US Library of Congress has to say about the war.

"The war was militarily inconclusive; each side held prisoners and some territory belonging to the other. Losses were relatively heavy—on the Pakistani side, twenty aircraft, 200 tanks, and 3,800 troops. Pakistan's army had been able to withstand Indian pressure, but a continuation of the fighting would only have led to further losses and ultimate defeat for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis, schooled in the belief of their own martial prowess, refused to accept the possibility of their country's military defeat by "Hindu India" and were, instead, quick to blame their failure to attain their military aims on what they considered to be the ineptitude of Ayub Khan and his government. "
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+pk0152)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1965#cite_note-USLib-29

From Devin Hagerty's South Asia in World Politics
"The invading Indian forces outfought their Pakistani counterparts and halted their attack on the outskirts of Lahore, Pakistan's second-largest city. By the time United Nations intervened on September 22, Pakistan had suffered a clear defeat."
https://books.google.com/books?id=l...gAhXiYN8KHXVfDawQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

This is what Gertjan Dijkink wrote in his book National Identity and geopolitical visions
"The superior Indian forces, however, won a decisive victory and the army could have even marched on into Pakistani territory had external pressure not forced both combatants to cease their war efforts."
https://books.google.com/books?id=z...gAhVuh-AKHSKfDt0Q6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false


This is what South Asian historian Stanley Wolpert wrote:
"In three weeks the second Indo-Pak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin. "

Virtually every neutral assessment written after the war was over showed that it was India that kcked Pakistan's A*s and humiliated it in front of the whole world.


With that being said, I do agree that the Pakistan Air Force outperformed the IAF thanks to its superior American aircraft.

In case if you had missed it du3 to your $h1t show,
Like I said, I will say again for thick skull, in the 65 war Battle of Chawinda is the largest tank battle after ww2, in which entire Chawinda was converted into bharti tank graveyard. No such scale tank war ever fought. Khem karan was captured by Pakistani troops and you bharti terrorists had no access, you tried but several times your @$$3s were slaughtered and fed to vultures. Your invaders tried in Sialkot and Pakistanis cracked your head open, you planned and dreamt of having tea in Lahore but again Pakistan army slap you to real world and show you who is your real d@ di di why. Your terrorists in Sind who were trying to invade our province were thrashed by Sindhi population and they begged for mercy. Stop sking on fake history by your propaganda terrorists. The logic that you will never get under your thick skull.

For 99 war how Pakistan screw your terrorists like a b1tches, your Raja Saba themselves doing r rona like a dehati aurat.

• "Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

Following are the Kargil peaks captured by Pakistan in 1999

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Tiger Hill
  
• Dhalunag

Now following are the Kargil peaks still under Pakistani control as of 2018

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Dhalunag

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/debunking-kargil-myths-how-pakistan-captured-point-5353.566442/

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Goat f*ckers vs Cow m*lesters. What an ultimate South Asian sh*t show we have going on here.

looking back i do regret stooping to that level. I do apologize I offended anyone

In case if you had missed it du3 to your $h1t show,
Like I said, I will say again for thick skull, in the 65 war Battle of Chawinda is the largest tank battle after ww2, in which entire Chawinda was converted into bharti tank graveyard. No such scale tank war ever fought. Khem karan was captured by Pakistani troops and you bharti terrorists had no access, you tried but several times your @$$3s were slaughtered and fed to vultures. Your invaders tried in Sialkot and Pakistanis cracked your head open, you planned and dreamt of having tea in Lahore but again Pakistan army slap you to real world and show you who is your real d@ di di why. Your terrorists in Sind who were trying to invade our province were thrashed by Sindhi population and they begged for mercy. Stop sking on fake history by your propaganda terrorists. The logic that you will never get under your thick skull.

For 99 war how Pakistan screw your terrorists like a b1tches, your Raja Saba themselves doing r rona like a dehati aurat.

• "Pakistan is occupying at least six strategically located Indian peaks in the Kargil sector along the Line of Control" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Point 5353 is very strategic. In 1992-93, the then corps commander (of India) decided to make a shift pocket on this point and sent personnel there by helicopter. The officers posted there successfully cut off the entire supply to the Pakistani pockets along the LoC for nearly two months."...he said the Indian Army then claimed that point 5353 is "within our LoC and that we have every right to patrol the area." - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "Indian troops had tried to capture Point 5353 on May 18, 1999 when army operations were beginning in Operation Vijay in Kargil last year. But it failed...the operation was carried out by a team of soldiers led by Major Navneet Mehta."..."It is not possible to carry out an assault from the northwestern, western and south western approaches,"..."attack on 5353 called off due to bad weather" and that "13 OR (other ranks) injured in Maj Navneet's Pl (platoon) due to difficult trn (terrain)". - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "If the army's argument that Point 5353 was never India's is to be accepted, then why did they launch the attack?" - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

• "It looks like our army commanders are wrongly briefing the defence minister," he said when Fernandes' statement was pointed out. "The defence minister mislead Parliament on the basis of the briefing by army officers," Anand said, while demanding action against senior army commanders. - Rajya Sabha member & senior criminal advocate R K Anand. (30 August 2000)

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

Following are the Kargil peaks captured by Pakistan in 1999

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Tiger Hill
  
• Dhalunag

Now following are the Kargil peaks still under Pakistani control as of 2018

• Point 5353
• Point Aftab-I
• Point Saddle Ridge
• Point Bunker Ridge
• Shangruti
• Dhalunag

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/debunking-kargil-myths-how-pakistan-captured-point-5353.566442/

it doesn't matter how many times you repeat a lie, it wont become true. I have already provided ample evidence for why pakistan cannot claim victory in ANY Indo Pak war. If you refuse to look at it, that is not my problem

 

[Pakistani E]

looking back i do regret stooping to that level. I do apologize I offended anyone

Haha no. No one sided apology is needed. It's the nature of threads in the South Asian section to eventually go down that route.

 

[Pakhtoon yum]

Hahah butthurt Pakistani you got a huge thrashing in 48, you invaded a sovereign state with a poorly organized military. As soon as the Indian army was sent you got your a*sses kicked and we occupy the majority of Kashmir, Jammu, and Ladakh. You cannot deny that fact.

In 1965 you got defeated badly at Khem Karan. What makes you think you captured Kehm Karan/ Must be your Madrassa education. the only territory in India Paksitan captured was some deserts in Rajasthan As for Chawinda, tactically, that was actually a victory for India because it diverted Pakistani troops from Kashmir and allowed India to capture Haji Pir Pass, blocking Pakistan from Kashmir. According to the US Library of Congress, India captured 1000 Km of Pakistani Territory, Pakistan barely had 200 km of Indian territory. Those are facts you cannot deny

It is also funny how you claim 1999 was your victory. Acoording to the CIA investigation, over 700 of your troops were killed, whereas under 500 Indian soldiers died. So much for you slaughtering our troops. And it was Nawaz Shariff who ran begging to Clinton to save them from the evil Indian Hindus, so that Pakistan does not get crushed by India like what happened in every other Indo Pak War. Just days before he ran to Clinton with his tail between his legs, India scored a major military victory at Tiger Hill, the highest and most strategic point in the Kargil sector.

And as for point 5263, that was not even part of Indian territory. It was Pakistani territory captured by India that was reoccupied by Pakistan after India captured point 5310. India also captured point 4281 and point 5770, all of which were in Pakistani territory, and the weak Pakistani army with their beta male soldiers was too scared to take them back. If Pakistan won Kargil, why is India still able to continue operations on the Siachen Highway unhindered? The point of Kargil was to cut off India from Siachen. So why did Pakistan go through the humiliation of getting its a** kicked at Tiger hill and withdrawing in front of the whole world while India still freely uses the Siachen Highway? Are Pakistani Muslims too scared of getting enslaved by Indian Hindus like they were for the past few centuries?

As for 1971, just llik at the Battle of Langewala. 100 Indian soldiers whipped several thousand Pakistanis.

And as for the 1962 China war, China had 70000 soldiers against 10000 Indian soldiers. It is pretty impressive that India killed almost 1000 Chines despite losing. things were different in 1967 when China tried to prevent India from taking Sikkim, when we gave them quite a beating. But I am not surprised that Pakistanis need their daddy Chinese to protect them from the evil Hindus, because EVERY time Pakistan fought India, it got bitchslapped and humiliated by India. Since 1947, India has only gained territory, and has even annexed Pakistani territory such as turtuk, and points 5310, 2481, and 5770. Whereas Pakistan has only lost territory. And yet some insecure Pakistanis want to claim Pakistan has won all the wars lol. The truth must hurt that Pakistan has not won a single war in its history. @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer @Jackdaws


you're right, that language was inappropriate. I apologize. I let my annoyance of him derailing this thread get the better of me. But I stand by everything else I said

Just keep the arguments civil, I could careless what both of your stances were

Goat f*ckers vs Cow m*lesters. What an ultimate South Asian sh*t show we have going on here.

Idk why it's so hard for people to keep it cool

 

[American Pakistani]

it doesn't matter how many times you repeat a lie, it wont become true. I have already provided ample evidence for why pakistan cannot claim victory in ANY Indo Pak war. If you refuse to look at it, that is not my problem

Same goes for you, no matter how much you try to sell your narrative here, you will not find any fool to buy it. You can sell it only in bhart only. I have posted tons of evidence which shows your loss, it is not entirely your fault as you are just a brainwashed product. You guys follow the famous quote that if a lie is spoken hundred of times it gives an impression of truth and that is what you guys does. You have all losses except 71 war against Pakistan and that was also for the reasons I mentioned in my posts. Just doing r rona makes you look an embarrassing clown, since you think Pakistan conducted this attack, go on and attack Pakistan...but I know you can't as you have no pair of balls available in your country and no one will export it to you.

Haha no. No one sided apology is needed. It's the nature of threads in the South Asian section to eventually go down that route.

Tbh and fair, I saw him using that language for the first time. I didn't came across his post with that language in the past. Don't know what triggered him though, but to me it showed he was frustrated at me, which gave me kinda sense of victory...lol

 

[Adonis]

Yes yes just like Kashmiris kicked those clowns out of their territory. Your 7 lakh indian occupier terrorists are facing very hard times in controlling these Kashmiris, what would those clowns do? Plus, Muslims in India are only waiting for their population to rise first before they come into action.

Lol...so this is the strategy...actually we Muslims (around the globe) can only grow in population as we very well know how to F*** Up.....
We cannot grow in terms of scientific achievements, tech,medicine, economy....etc etc...growth for us is multiply our types in numbers....and then start killing each other (Muslims).. ..again F***ing up the so called Ummah....

 

[Cobra Arbok]

Same goes for you, no matter how much you try to sell your narrative here, you will not find any fool to buy it. You can sell it only in bhart only. I have posted tons of evidence which shows your loss, it is not entirely your fault as you are just a brainwashed product. You guys follow the famous quote that if a lie is spoken hundred of times it gives an impression of truth and that is what you guys does. You have all losses except 71 war against Pakistan and that was also for the reasons I mentioned in my posts. Just doing r rona makes you look an embarrassing clown, since you think Pakistan conducted this attack, go on and attack Pakistan...but I know you can't as you have no pair of balls available in your country and no one will export it to you.



Tbh and fair, I saw him using that language for the first time. I didn't came across his post with that language in the past. Don't know what triggered him though, but to me it showed he was frustrated at me, which gave me kinda sense of victory...lol

No you haven't provided any evidence as to how you achieved your objectives in any of the Indo Pak wars other than some refuted articles. In 1947 you attempted to annex a sovereign country with British support, but you only managed to get 1/3 of it before the Indian Army arrived and kicked you out. 1965 began wth you attempting to take back Kashmir, it ended with you barely being able to defend Lahore after losing 1000 km of territory. In 1999 you lost many strategic points and got kicked out of Kargil sector after suffering a major military defeat at Tiger Hill. Despite supposedly capturing point 5363 which was not even occupied at the time, you still lost important peaks to India and most importantly failed to take the Siachen highway. And it was YOUR Prime Minister who ran to Bill Clinton.

And I have presented unbiased analyses from neutral sources including military historians, South Asian historians, and the world's most respected research agency(The Library of congress) that prove you wrong. Pf course, you refused to look at them.

And yes you did frustrate me that you managed to turn what should have been a non-controversial article into another debate where you try to spread your false narrative of Pakistani victories in all Indo-Pak Wars, and all that garbage about Muslims taking over India. If you want to call that a victory, congratulations.

 

[Musalman]

20 crore bangalis have shown you how you treated them.
25000 muhajirs were killed by rangers in operations in 1993 ,
baloch leaders are being killed systematically by you , lakhs of balochs and pashtuns have become namaloom afrad ,
pashtun are on target now , there are many no go areas in pashtun belt .
so indian muslims know how pakistan treats muslims so will remain indian forever .
kashmiri terrorists will be wiped out by all means .

Okay we Pakistanis are very bad people and you Indians are avatars. Why are you guys so afraid of the plebiscite?

 

[Jackdaws]

Don't worry whatever you are doing keep doing - you will lose all parts under Indian occupation.

Been hearing it since 1947. Except Goa, Sikkim, Junagadh, Hyderabad, Pondicherry were all integrated. India has only grown. Can't say the same about you.

A good compromise is to allow Kashmir independence. Ladakh self determination. And India can keep Jammu.

That was offered to Pak in the 1960s. Pak roundly rejected it.

 

[GHALIB]

Okay we Pakistanis are very bad people and you Indians are avatars. Why are you guys so afraid of the plebiscite?

you are afraid of plebiscite ,
vacate your part of kashmir ,indian forces will go and take charge there ,then plebiscite will take place . this is U.N. resolution.
go read first.

 

[Jackdaws]

Hahah butthurt Pakistani you got a huge thrashing in 48, you invaded a sovereign state with a poorly organized military. As soon as the Indian army was sent you got your a*sses kicked and we occupy the majority of Kashmir, Jammu, and Ladakh. You cannot deny that fact.

In 1965 you got defeated badly at Khem Karan. What makes you think you captured Kehm Karan/ Must be your Madrassa education. the only territory in India Paksitan captured was some deserts in Rajasthan As for Chawinda, tactically, that was actually a victory for India because it diverted Pakistani troops from Kashmir and allowed India to capture Haji Pir Pass, blocking Pakistan from Kashmir. According to the US Library of Congress, India captured 1000 Km of Pakistani Territory, Pakistan barely had 200 km of Indian territory. Those are facts you cannot deny

It is also funny how you claim 1999 was your victory. Acoording to the CIA investigation, over 700 of your troops were killed, whereas under 500 Indian soldiers died. So much for you slaughtering our troops. And it was Nawaz Shariff who ran begging to Clinton to save them from the evil Indian Hindus, so that Pakistan does not get crushed by India like what happened in every other Indo Pak War. Just days before he ran to Clinton with his tail between his legs, India scored a major military victory at Tiger Hill, the highest and most strategic point in the Kargil sector.

And as for point 5263, that was not even part of Indian territory. It was Pakistani territory captured by India that was reoccupied by Pakistan after India captured point 5310. India also captured point 4281 and point 5770, all of which were in Pakistani territory, and the weak Pakistani army with their beta male soldiers was too scared to take them back. If Pakistan won Kargil, why is India still able to continue operations on the Siachen Highway unhindered? The point of Kargil was to cut off India from Siachen. So why did Pakistan go through the humiliation of getting its a** kicked at Tiger hill and withdrawing in front of the whole world while India still freely uses the Siachen Highway? Are Pakistani Muslims too scared of getting enslaved by Indian Hindus like they were for the past few centuries?

As for 1971, just llik at the Battle of Langewala. 100 Indian soldiers whipped several thousand Pakistanis.

And as for the 1962 China war, China had 70000 soldiers against 10000 Indian soldiers. It is pretty impressive that India killed almost 1000 Chines despite losing. things were different in 1967 when China tried to prevent India from taking Sikkim, when we gave them quite a beating. But I am not surprised that Pakistanis need their daddy Chinese to protect them from the evil Hindus, because EVERY time Pakistan fought India, it got bitchslapped and humiliated by India. Since 1947, India has only gained territory, and has even annexed Pakistani territory such as turtuk, and points 5310, 2481, and 5770. Whereas Pakistan has only lost territory. And yet some insecure Pakistanis want to claim Pakistan has won all the wars lol. The truth must hurt that Pakistan has not won a single war in its history. @Nilgiri @Joe Shearer @Jackdaws


you're right, that language was inappropriate. I apologize. I let my annoyance of him derailing this thread get the better of me. But I stand by everything else I said

I am tired of repeating Kargil. Their counter usually is that their thrice elected Pak Army back PM - Sharif was an Indian agent who sold them out in Kargil.