JMSDF's Commissioning of SS-504 Zuiryu

[SvenSvensonov]

Depends on the foiling, the problem with it is that if its damaged, it emits their signals. Unfortunately for the PLAN, the majority of their subs are quite noisy, actually. And they're easy to find. We've tracked them regularly...


I've read into the improved version of the Virginia Class. Those will definitely have reduced signals, but with the same lethal capabilities. And I hear the USN is to build 30 ships of this class.

That's right, 30 total... if the budget gets worked out as all 30 are not yet funded. But this isn't going to be 30 of the same boat. The most recent being built are of the Block III type which use a different sonar than the previous two blocks and will feature more improvements built on lessons learned from the previous blocks. We'll upgrade the old ones eventually, once again budget permitting, but until that comes to pass we will have a sub force of Virginia-class boats with differing capabilities. With the overall quality of the Virginia-class this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does force the Naval Brass to use their boats in different situations as the capabilities will differ, albeit with small deviations, from block to block

 

[Donatello]

How much is the cost of each boat of this SS504 class subs?

I wish Pakistan could get this with AIP.

The only instance of such a quote that I came across was on the comment section of an RT article, but that's hardly a representative view of how the US navy thinks. The kilos are an older design, similar to the 209, but they are still much more quiet than even our most modern of nuke boats. The Virginia's are great and i am delighted that we are producing more and upgrading the older ones but as capable as they are the AIP boats of the world will give our sailors nightmares.

Any particular reason that a diesel electric boat would be quieter than a nuclear boat? Does the Nuclear reactor actually produce that much noise?

 

[Aepsilons]

That's right, 30 total... if the budget gets worked out as all 30 are not yet funded. But this isn't going to be 30 of the same boat. The most recent being built are of the Block III type which use a different sonar than the previous two blocks and will feature more improvements built on lessons learned from the previous blocks. We'll upgrade the old ones eventually, once again budget permitting, but until that comes to pass we will have a sub force of Virginia-class boats with differing capabilities. With the overall quality of the Virginia-class this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does force the Naval Brass to use their boats in different situations as the capabilities will differ, albeit with small deviations, from block to block

Thats quite impressive actually. I also hope that the US Congress and Senate will approve the military budget of the US Navy. This is one military branch that must not and should not experience defense cuts.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

How much is the cost of each boat of this SS504 class subs?

I wish Pakistan could get this with AIP.



Any particular reason that a diesel electric boat would be quieter than a nuclear boat? Does the Nuclear reactor actually produce that much noise?

It's the machinery that makes the difference. On battery power, an AIP sub or diesel electric boat is going to have few moving parts, save for the screw and prop (or pump jet). But nuke boats will always have parts of their engines doing something that is detectable as the reactor's not going to be switched off for a silent run. Also the amount of heat produced by nuke boats is greater that that of the AIP or diesel electrics, which can also be detected. For subs noise matters, but so to do other spectrums.

 

[Donatello]

It's the machinery that makes the difference. On battery power, an AIP sub or diesel electric boat is going to have few moving parts, save for the screw and prop (or pump jet). But nuke boats will always have parts of their engines doing something that is detectable as the reactors is not going to be switched off or a silent run. Also the amount of heat produced by nuke boats is greater that that of the AIP or diesel electrics, which can also be detected. For subs noise matters, but so to do other spectrums.

Hmm, indeed, electric motor is quiet, since it has only one moving part, the Rotor. However, how would detect they heat from a distance while submerged in water? And by distance i don't mean in your way, 10-50 meters ahead, but rather like a few miles out.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Hmm, indeed, electric motor is quiet, since it has only one moving part, the Rotor. However, how would detect they heat from a distance while submerged in water? And by distance i don't mean in your way, 10-50 meters ahead, but rather like a few miles out.

It's difficult for sure as heat diffuses rapidly in water, but it can be done. I can't go into specifics on what type of sensors are going to be used or their ranges, but I will say that using heat to find a sub is similar to using noise. For noise you're looking for patches that produce "non-nature sounds" or are a bit too quiet. For heat you're looking for patches of radiant heat that will linger for "a while". At long ranges, such as miles, heat detection will be sidelined in favor or sonar or electromagnetic detection. but at ranges within several miles to several yards heat detection can help a submariner find their target or identify a trailer.

 

[Donatello]

It's difficult for sure as heat diffuses rapidly in water, but it can be done. I can't go into specifics on what type of sensors are going to be used or their ranges, but I will say that using heat to find a sub is similar to using noise. For noise you're looking for patches that produce "non-nature sounds" or are a bit too quiet. For heat you're looking for patches of radiant heat that will linger for "a while". A long ranges, such as miles, heat detection will be sidelined in favor or sonar or electromagnetic detection. but at ranges within several miles to several yards heat detection can help a submariner find their target or identify a trailer.

What's your professional profile like? Would love to discuss more.

Keep posting technical stuff.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

What's your professional profile like? Would love to discuss more.

Keep posting technical stuff.

I spent 8 years in the US navy, a couple month in basic, the rest of the time working as an emanation security technician, testing and verifying the amount of leakage our systems broadcast to ensure they were safe for battlefield and peacetime use. This was especially true for submarines, which where a major focus of mine as I worked with systems being used on the Seawolfs and Virginias as well as systems used to communicate with subs via airborne platforms such as the p-8. I was stationed in Virginia, where i still live, though after i left the navy I took a job as a psychologist at a university hospital where I work with patients 3 day a week and as a researcher the other two work days. I have a Masters in Behavioral Neuroscience and am at present perusing my Ph.D in Biochemical Engineering, the conclusion of my studies will be in several years time however as i am less than halfway into the program (about 40%).

While my information might be outdated by a couple of months, given i left the navy earlier this year, my girlfriend who i met while on leave is activity duty navy and provides me with more up to date info. I too look forward to a positive relationship with you and all others on PDF and will do my best to provide relevant, accurate and important technical details on navy and maritime aviation systems.

SvenSvensonov

 

[Aepsilons]

I spent 8 years in the US navy, a couple month in basic, the rest of the time working as an emanation security technician, testing and verifying the amount of leakage our systems broadcast to ensure they were safe for battlefield and peacetime use. This was especially true for submarines, which where a major focus of mine as I worked with systems being used on the Seawolfs and Virginias as well as systems used to communicate with subs via airborne platforms such as the p-8. I was stationed in Virginia, where i still live, though after i left the navy I took a job as a psychologist at a university hospital where I work with patients 3 day a week and as a researcher the other two work days. I have a Masters in Behavioral Neuroscience and am at present perusing my Ph.D in Biochemical Engineering, the conclusion of my studies will be in several years time however as i am less than halfway into the program (about 40%).

While my information might be outdated by a couple of months, given i left the navy earlier this year, my girlfriend who i met while on leave is activity duty navy and provides me with more up to date info. I too look forward to a positive relationship with you and all others on PDF and will do my best to provide relevant, accurate and important technical details on navy and maritime aviation systems.

SvenSvensonov

We're pleasured to have another intellectual member join our forum community, sir. I look forward to your posts and activity here.

Kind Regards,

 

[Donatello]

I spent 8 years in the US navy, a couple month in basic, the rest of the time working as an emanation security technician, testing and verifying the amount of leakage our systems broadcast to ensure they were safe for battlefield and peacetime use. This was especially true for submarines, which where a major focus of mine as I worked with systems being used on the Seawolfs and Virginias as well as systems used to communicate with subs via airborne platforms such as the p-8. I was stationed in Virginia, where i still live, though after i left the navy I took a job as a psychologist at a university hospital where I work with patients 3 day a week and as a researcher the other two work days. I have a Masters in Behavioral Neuroscience and am at present perusing my Ph.D in Biochemical Engineering, the conclusion of my studies will be in several years time however as i am less than halfway into the program (about 40%).

While my information might be outdated by a couple of months, given i left the navy earlier this year, my girlfriend who i met while on leave is activity duty navy and provides me with more up to date info. I too look forward to a positive relationship with you and all others on PDF and will do my best to provide relevant, accurate and important technical details on navy and maritime aviation systems.

SvenSvensonov

Great!

Always good to see informative posts. Hope you continue to post, especially in Naval warfare sections. Will learn a thing or two.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

How much is the cost of each boat of this SS504 class subs?

I wish Pakistan could get this with AIP.

If Pakistan could manage the 550 million USD (the estimated cost of the sixth Soryu) price tag it would represent a major capability increase in their naval weapons, surveillance and patrol. Still, while I would also put it on the wish list, even for the US who is too focused on nuke propulsion, Pakistan and Japan would need to improve their political ties many times over to meet the conditions necessary for Japan to see it fit to sell Pakistan military equipment. The Agostas aren't a bad systems, just old, but with upgrades they could see similar effectiveness as the Vietnamese or Russian Kilos.

 

[Donatello]

If Pakistan could manage the 550 million USD (the estimated cost of the sixth Soryu) price tag it would represent a major capability increase in their naval weapons, surveillance and patrol. Still, while I would also put it on the wish list, even for the US who is too focused on nuke propulsion, Pakistan and Japan would need to improve their political ties many times over to meet the conditions necessary for Japan to see it fit to sell Pakistan military equipment. The Agostas aren't a bad systems, just old, but with upgrades they could see similar effectiveness as the Vietnamese or Russian Kilos.

Yea, the relations are fine, but traditionally Pakistan has never sought major weapons systems from Japan. It just wasn't a natural choice. There are newer AIP submarines expected to come, but most probably from China. Pakistan would surely want them as good or better than the French Agostas.

How would you rate different submarines in terms of their stealth/noise?

Let's say Russian Akula/Typhoon/Kilo vs American Sea Wofl/ LA Class/ Virginia/Ohio vs British Trafalgar/Astute class vs Chinese Type 41/39/96?

BTW, Introduce yourself in the members section if you may, how did you find out about PDF?

@WebMaster Professional member?

 

[F-22Raptor]

Thats quite impressive actually. I also hope that the US Congress and Senate will approve the military budget of the US Navy. This is one military branch that must not and should not experience defense cuts.

I don't see the Navy having significant cuts to the force. They are too important for our overall defense strategy. US defense spending tends to run in up an down cycles, so hopefully investments in key programs will rise in the near future.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Yea, the relations are fine, but traditionally Pakistan has never sought major weapons systems from Japan. It just wasn't a natural choice. There are newer AIP submarines expected to come, but most probably from China. Pakistan would surely want them as good or better than the French Agostas.

How would you rate different submarines in terms of their stealth/noise?

Let's say Russian Akula/Typhoon/Kilo vs American Sea Wofl/ LA Class/ Virginia/Ohio vs British Trafalgar/Astute class vs Chinese Type 41/39/96?

BTW, Introduce yourself in the members section if you may, how did you find out about PDF?

@WebMaster Professional member?

Relations between Japan and Pakistan are good, yes. Just this year both sides agreed to improve their business cooperation, but it takes something special for Japan to consider selling military equipment to another nation. Add Pakistan's relationship to China into the equation and I would have to agree that Pakistan not only makes a habit of seeking weapons from nations other than Japan, but that the political realities simply aren't present, or foreseeable in the future for Japan and Pakistan to come to an agreement on the selling of Soryus to Pakistan.

As for the Stealthiness of modern subs, I tend to refrain from comparisons as I don't want to reveal US intelligence estimates and little to no information is made public (I'm not revealing non-public info)... that and comparisons tend to descend into arguments and nationalistic-fueled "man-hood measurement contestants".

Still I will offer this. US subs go in this order from least to most stealthy. LA, Virginia, Seawolf. Russia... well most of their boats of very noisy when compared to US subs, but the Akula and more recent Yasens are approaching US levels, though still not comparable. British subs are good as well. The Astute class is very quiet, even to the point of US commanders applauding their capabilities... though what is said in public is never truly true. Chinese subs are notorious for the amount of noise and heat they produce, but like the Russians their more modern subs are making strides... they just have more work to do than the Russians.

 

[Donatello]

Relations between Japan and Pakistan are good, yes. Just this year both sides agreed to improve their business cooperation, but it takes something special for Japan to consider selling military equipment to another nation. Add Pakistan's relationship to China into the equation and I would have to agree that Pakistan not only makes a habit of seeking weapons from nations other than Japan, but that the political realities simply aren't present, or foreseeable in the future for Japan and Pakistan to come to an agreement on the selling of Soryus to Pakistan.

As for the Stealthiness of modern subs, I tend to refrain from comparisons as I don't want to reveal US intelligence estimates and little to no information is made public (I'm not revealing non-public info)... that and comparisons tend to descend into arguments and nationalistic-fueled "man-hood measurement contestants".

Still I will offer this. US subs go in this order from least to most stealthy. LA, Virginia, Seawolf. Russia... well most of their boats of very noisy when compared to US subs, but the Akula and more recent Yasens are approaching US levels, though still not comparable. British subs are good as well. The Astute class is very quiet, even to the point of US commanders applauding their capabilities... though what is said in public is never truly true. Chinese subs are notorious for the amount of noise and heat they produce, but like the Russians their more modern subs are making strides... they just have more work to do than the Russians.

Seems understandable that it's a natural technological evolution. I guess in the near future differences would less and less, so one would have to come up with innovative ways to detect submarines.

Fow ASW aircraft like P3 and P8, what is the maximum altitude/speed they can fly at and still have a reasonable chance of detecting a submarine, say that has gone 200 meters deep?