JF-17 vs Tejas at Dubai Airshow

[ozranger]

Tejas

JF-17

What are the aerodynamical differences you can notice between their demo flights?

 

[MirageBlue]

You are right, and I regret giving the impression that entitlement to twin-engined aircraft was a naval birthright; it was an acquired flourish.

Afterthought: Actually I wasn't aware that the Navy had approached ADA and not the other way around. That is useful to know. Why did they approach ADA and not HAL? Was the approach before Tejas had been productionised?

Well ADA was the design and development agency, with HAL as a production partner, although in reality HAL was the agency that had most of the experience in design and a large share of ADA designers and engineers were originally from HAL.

But the approach was made to ADA by the IN long ago, if I recall correctly, sometime around 1994 or so.

 

[CriticalThought]

This thread illustrates clearly what is wrong with Pakistan, and what they will always fail to grasp.

There is a difference between building an entire eco-system, with no external assistance except two interventions, first, the collaboration that Lockheed Martin offered, and then withdrew along with the confiscation of all Indian engineers' personal notes, second, the discussions with Dassault about some basic aerodynamic issues that were addressed to the mutual satisfaction of both those consulted and those consulting.

Since then, HAL tried to project the Tejas well beyond its projected positioning as the mass produced replacement for the MiG 21, and even took it to the Navy, in the teeth of the obvious baseline assumption that the Navy (a) doesn't like to take single engine aircraft; (b) doesn't like aircraft designs that do not take into account the tremendous shock of landing on a very constricted deck and then being physically restrained to bring the aircraft to a halt. That was really a waste of time, and a firm hand at the controls would have saved the Navy a lot of time, and saved HAL from a lot of wishful thinking.

Now the basic model is being put into volume production at steadily increasing volumes, and there is enough surplus trained technical capability to look at increments, without big brother breathing heavily down our necks, to look at enhancing the core capabilities planned and the next step up, and to look at involving a wide swathe of Indian industry in thinking and doing things for the defence services.

What I read here was ridiculous. There is not the slightest understanding of the gross differences between good project managers, pushing the right buttons to make a technically superior partner country perform as they should perform to improve the client's position, and between setting up an entire industry, that will clearly progressively take up the slack from HAL. How that will be done remains to be seen; it could be by separating rotary wing manufacture, that was given a massive push forward by that marvellous Chairman Baweja, and fixed wing manufacture, or by separating fixed wing manufacture out into different paths into the future, based on the mother plants of HAL collaborating with closely located private industry, or a vast combination of paths. Those are now available to us. What is also available is an abundance of technical and design talent, not just in aircraft design, but in design of guns, of ships and of armoured vehicles. Whichever the branch of enterprise - disclaimer: I am NOT a Modi fan - India has a firm grip on it, well beyond the sneers and envious quips of some of those who have posted here, well beyond software, at which we have bluntly proved to be more than adequate, into hardware.

Some idiot talked about our having had exposure to blueprints. Only an idiot would make a remark like that. One of the jobs I undertook for the IAF was to translate and convert all their documentation into SGML. There were around fifteen or sixteen basic types flying then. The quality of the documentation was atrocious (two-thirds in Russian, but that was not an issue; we had acquired enough resource to translate those, verify them as accurate and convert them), and there were huge gaps in basics. When we sent people to the mother plants, we found that they were not particularly well off either. The western planes were covered in a hugely different manner, and their performance in active deployment was also streets ahead.

What amazes me is the cocksure way in which people make comments, without the slightest idea of what has been achieved, and what lies ahead as a result. I say this more in wonder than with a sense of annoyance, except vicarious annoyance for the harassment of a lone Indian who has been trying, a mistake, to defend the Tejas performance at an airshow, as a design, as a stepping stone, in short, whatever a rather dim squad sought to attack him about.

Let me predict the future.

It will be death by being ground down into finely ground meal. In spite of my dislike of the present Indian central government's plans and policies and its blindness to social issues and to the rights of minorities, economically, they have had the good sense to leave things to the capitalists - not necessarily a brilliant thing to do, but it is what it is - after an initial couple of bungles, with de-monetisation and with their adoption of GST. As a result, the losses due to COVID, that again we survived IN SPITE of the government, have been made up, and growth is in the region of 7%. With its recent electoral demonstration that it is firmly in control, expect to see more and more being made within the country, and more and more industrial capacity coming into play. We may never come close to matching China, an invasion of Tibet will never be possible, but there is nothing deterring us from overpowering anything else that our politicians set their minds to demolish. Only an open land attack on China will remain out of consideration.

There is always the hope that our general officers will make disastrous mistakes.

It is here that our enemies must put their prayers. If we get another Rawat at the helm of affairs, other nations have a fighting chance. Not in matching India technically, or in production, or in deployment. We make mistakes; as one person posting pointed out with a smug tone, our mistakes are known pretty quickly, because we tell the whole world what we are planning to do, rather than being dazzlingly brilliant and not informing the world how we have sunk one more level in our ability to procure adequate defence equipment. This is not true. We were picking up and executing projects well beyond the capabilities advertised - to name two things long gone by and visible only in the rear view mirror, learning the basics of glass cockpit design and implementation in a close collaboration with a leading French technical world leader, and writing the programme for the flight control of the PSLV; eight microprocessors conversing with each other in Ada, and coming to a decision (the first, and last project ISRO allowed out, even to the joint sector).

We really have nothing to worry about in the real world, and at worst, will have to face, as individuals, the gibes and snide remarks of the underinformed.

What a load of jingoistic, nationalist bull crap portrayed as self-deprecating humblebrag.

The Tejas is visible proof of Indian incompetence in the world of fighter jet design which, after decades of faux haughtiness about not wanting to accept anything but the highest standards of engineering, has indeed been inducted and serves as sh*t smeared on your brown faces. And instead of displaying even an iota of shame, you come to our forum and show-off your ability to lick shit off your own face. Pathetic. By Indian admission, the MK-2 shall wipe this shit off your faces, but till then let me help rub your nose into Indian excretions that your nation has deposited over the past few decades.

Based on this Tejas project, we have absolutely no admissible proof that the Indian capability to design, test, and manufacture a modern fighter jet has matured in any form. Bragging about numbers of engineers and scientists does not help when we have no proof of their capabilities. Showing research papers displays your own amateurishness because those are just the first step which is prone to a number of manipulations.

The real mettle of your capabilities is the production of a modern fighter jet that you are actually able to manufacture in large numbers. Or, they have such advanced sixth generation capabilities, that even a small number can guarantee air superiority. Until then, stop insulting yourself with abstract desires of jump starting an indigenous ecosystem. And don’t bring in naval and land based systems in a discussion on fighter jets. Or for that matter, discussion of rotary wings or other irrelevant crafts. Show us an indigenous fighter jet that stands proud amongst modern fighter jets.

And on a personal note — since the forum may be no more — by reading your posts, for some reason I get the impression of someone who fell into an emulsion of equal parts mustard oil and equal parts cow urine. I feel utmost revulsion reading your posts, and I wouldn’t trust a female dog being left alone with you. Which means I despise all Pakistanis who treat you like a gentleman. That bossman guy really gave you the treatment you deserve.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What a load of jingoistic, nationalist bull crap portrayed as self-deprecating humblebrag.

The Tejas is visible proof of Indian incompetence in the world of fighter jet design which, after decades of faux haughtiness about not wanting to accept anything but the highest standards of engineering, has indeed been inducted and serves as sh*t smeared on your brown faces. And instead of displaying even an iota of shame, you come to our forum and show-off your ability to lick shit off your own face. Pathetic. By Indian admission, the MK-2 shall wipe this shit off your faces, but till then let me help rub your nose into Indian excretions that your nation has deposited over the past few decades.

Based on this Tejas project, we have absolutely no admissible proof that the Indian capability to design, test, and manufacture a modern fighter jet has matured in any form. Bragging about numbers of engineers and scientists does not help when we have no proof of their capabilities. Showing research papers displays your own amateurishness because those are just the first step which is prone to a number of manipulations.

The real mettle of your capabilities is the production of a modern fighter jet that you are actually able to manufacture in large numbers. Or, they have such advanced sixth generation capabilities, that even a small number can guarantee air superiority. Until then, stop insulting yourself with abstract desires of jump starting an indigenous ecosystem. And don’t bring in naval and land based systems in a discussion on fighter jets. Or for that matter, discussion of rotary wings or other irrelevant crafts. Show us an indigenous fighter jet that stands proud amongst modern fighter jets.

And on a personal note — since the forum may be no more — by reading your posts, for some reason I get the impression of someone who fell into an emulsion of equal parts mustard oil and equal parts cow urine. I feel utmost revulsion reading your posts, and I wouldn’t trust a female dog being left alone with you. Which means I despise all Pakistanis who treat you like a gentleman. That bossman guy really gave you the treatment you deserve.

I am always willing to accept that I made a mistake.

Maybe @RAMPAGE and @MirageBlue were right and I was wrong. :enjoy:

 

[Bilal9]

#uck off randian, your lectures are not needed here. Too much cheap whiskey mixed with gao mutar

This is so uncalled for and shameful. Most of us hold @Joe Shearer dada to be a respected individual.

"Lectures" and (polite) arguments are why this forum was created and is being transferred, not for name calling.

If we in South Asia cannot tolerate dissent and reasoned arguments - then it is a sad thing.

 

[Bilal9]

You yourself are one who constantly abuses Hindus and Indians, with some of the most vile and filthy language I have seen against both the religion as well as people.

I have seen several of your posts that stoop to a level that I can scarcely believe a forum would allow, but this forum does. That is what tells me about the thinking of the average or even above average Pakistani who might be moderating the forum.

I wouldn't paint all Bangladeshis the same based on your posts, but you ought to contemplate about what you write and how it reflects on all the stuff that you just wrote.

India is a country of 1.4 billion people. You think all Indians are alike or that all Hindus are alike? Or that all Muslims are alike or always being persecuted and not the other way around?

I can safely say that all the pointers including economic, are pointing in exactly the direction that I want for Pakistan. And looking at the bigotry, the lack of any research or honesty or even self realisation, I doubt it will change anytime soon. The less of a threat they pose to India and Indians the better.

You speak with such hatred in your heart - and your rants have no basis unfortunately.

You are just unhappy that I bring proof and logic to an argument and have countered some uneducated chest-beaters from your country successfully.

I have been vocal about trolls I admit, but I make a definite difference between decent folks and trolls, in all countries including India.

Trying to paint me as anti-Indian will not work. Hindutva trolls and sane Indians are two different things.

 

[Joe Shearer]

This is so uncalled for and shameful. Most of us hold @Joe Shearer dada to be a respected individual.

"Lectures" and (polite) arguments are why this forum was created and is being transferred, not for name calling.

If we in South Asia cannot tolerate dissent and reasoned arguments - then it is a sad thing.

Don't encourage them, by responding.

They have just confirmed the grave doubts that an Indian and a Pakistani have expressed about them, and proven me wrong, so let it go.

 

[saiyan0321]

I am always willing to accept that I made a mistake.

Maybe @RAMPAGE and @MirageBlue were right and I was wrong. :enjoy:

Its your fault joe. You keep coming into dark alleys trying to lecture gangs and keep getting robbed. At some point you got to start blaming the victim.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its your fault joe. You keep coming into dark valleys trying to lecture gangs and keep getting robbed. At some point you got to start blaming the victim.

You may be right.

I hope you meant alleys.
I also hope you don't take these vulgar people seriously. They never have anything beyond abuse to offer.

 

[VkdIndian]

Show us an indigenous fighter jet that stands proud amongst modern fighter jets.

When did you get your eyesight checked? Get it done ASAP. It appears to be failing very badly.

 

[saiyan0321]

You may be right.

I hope you meant alleys.
I also hope you don't take these vulgar people seriously. They never have anything beyond abuse to offer.

Don't worry. I don't take anybody who uses colourful adjectives and writes an entire paragraph on what he is to do to the quoted individual before he writes some kind of response, seriously.

Today kind of annoyed me I remembered some annoying stuff from 2020ish. The COC for Pakistan members, pakpositivism and the research into the "enemy". Was supposed to work on a seminar I may be conducting regarding the paranoid Doctrine as well as was supposed to work on two researches, one on the non-refoulement doctrine regarding refugees and second on the bush doctrine and american exceptionalism. Got nothing done today.

 

[SaadH]

I wonder when was the last time, an Indian (Hindu or otherwise) player, performer , artist or any celebrity had to face hostilities or a hostile crowd and even ended up being hounded out of Pakistan.
One just has to see the treatment served by the peace loving Hindus to visiting Pakistani players and celebrities, even the so called friendship bus that was running between India / Pakistan had it's Windows smashed just because it displayed a Pakistani flag along with the Indian.
This forum is also an example of how the Indian members, who are given privilege to be here, often box above weight and get their kicks by taunting and ridiculing Pakistan and Pakistanis...
Least it's not Pakistanis who have voted the Snow White (Not Complexion) Indians as the most racist nation on earth.

Samjotha Express bombing in India is another example

 

[JX-1]

Regarding what the Pakistani and Chinese forum idiots have to troll about the Tejas program, I have since day 1 on this forum, said that let it be! The quality of the discussions on this forum are a general reflection of the level of education, honesty, experience and self respect of the Pakistanis and Chinese who write all that stuff.

There is plenty more colourful language that the rest of the world can use for Indians. You and your countrymen have a habit of swarming Pakistani spaces, running your mouths like filthy street dogs, and then crying as if you're the victims when told to F off.

they harbour a deep and abiding dislike and disrespect of the Hindu faith as well as a deep racism about the skin color of many Indians.

This is ironic coming from the country obsessed with being Aryan and White, where the way to win an election is to demonize Muslims and Pakistan.

Self reflection is one key feature of improvement. And that I'm glad to say, is missing from almost all Pakistanis I've encountered. Delusion, accompanied by belief in their own grandeur and total immersion in Islamic religion are a recipe for scientific and economic failures. Their template is SET.

India is descending into a communal gobar-fest. Joe's generation is a thing of the past. Pakistani society, on the other hand, is reverting to the pre-Zia days. It's alright if you can't come to terms with this - denial is a stage of grief, after all.

We are not the ones who declare any phallic shaped stone from traffic bollards erected the last night to centuries old mosques to be ancient hindu temples. Nor do we conduct failed airstrikes and international terrorist attacks because of a national inferiority complex.

In fact it makes me happy and dead sure that they are on their way to oblivion and economic and social disaster in the not too far future.

There's hundreds of millions of mentally stunted Indians seething over Pakistan's existence and jumping with joy at every setback we face. You ain't special, kid.

 

[JX-1]

When did you get your eyesight checked? Get it done ASAP. It appears to be failing very badly.

While there may have been lessons learnt and an ecosystem set up, the Tejas jet itself is a world renowned joke.

And for those under the impression that Pakistan has no ecosystem to develop its own aircraft - you will be in for a rude shock over the coming years.

 

[Chandragupt Maurya]

no one in the world want a body kit of jets made up of western parts that can be easily sanctioned..

they want real jets , even old mirage 2000 still better than tejas because it is french made and you can use it anywhere except when you at war with france lol

but with Tejas with so many imported part from different nations , you cant even use tejas to do any CAP due to 'western protest'

that is the real reason TEJAS failed to sell , not because of it's performace (its good because it is not indian jet but western jet with indian body kit)

and delusional indians still believe india can make AMCA ? what a joke

The Tejas is susceptible to American sanctions, although not to the same extent as the F16 or Gripen. This vulnerability can be mitigated by pre-purchasing engines and spare parts. India has been developing the Kaveri engine for the past 30 years, currently achieving a stable thrust of 73KN, slightly less than the 85KN of the GE F404 and a bit heavier. Despite this, it's slated for installation in the Tejas to undergo testing.

Exclusive | Indigenous Engine of Tejas on Its Way: ADE Director at DRDO Who Worked on LCA for 25 Years - News18

Indigenous content is very important for Atmanirbhar Bharat, Y Dilip told News18 at the Aero India 2023 in Bengaluru

www.news18.com

Over the next 8-10 years, it might reach 90KN of thrust; if not, India is concurrently developing a second 125KN engine. While its targeted thrust is uncertain, even if it attains 100KN, it would suffice for the Tejas.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-france-set-to-co-develop-jet-engine/article67081617.ece

 

[VkdIndian]

Tejas jet itself is a world renowned

No one is calling it world renowned. It would do the job for us and that is more than what we need or want. Being renowned was not our aim either.

And for those under the impression that Pakistan has no ecosystem to develop its own aircraft - you will be in for a rude shock over the coming years.

May not be a rude, but it would be a shock though. Paksiatn must have learned few things while working on JF. But, converting that into complete capability without major help from agency like CATIC or likewise isn’t expected.

Good luck.