Is Musharaf responsible for the present weak position of Pakistan over IOK?

[Wrath]

Yeah same question !!! . Will Pakistani top brass do something

Sir do you see any chances of conflict in coming days?

 

[Trango Towers]

No matter what people say/think of him. Facts are facts, he is responsible for the ill orchestrated Kargil war debacle for Pakistan which turned the International community opinion against Pakistan vis a vis Kashmir issue.

Then he came to power in Pakistan and pretty much reversed all the gains we had made in Kashmir. Got all cozy with India and allowed India to crush the Jihad in Kashmir by bowing to their demands and tied the hands of all the Freedom fighters who were fighting in IOK through Pakistan's help. The armed struggle in Kashmir was at its peak back then. He even allowed India to build the fence along the LOC and DID NOTHING for the Kashmiri struggle. All the gains made in IOK were lost just cause of him and India has now improved their infrastructure along LOC and inside IOK so much that it is almost impossible for Pakistan to raise the momentum of any armed struggle.


What are your thoughts on this??

Easy to blame....but what are you doing exactly? Other than pointing fingers

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

I think he was just trying the soft approach after he his covert but efficient approach was countermanded by traitor sharif.

 

[Sine Nomine]

I think he was just trying the soft approach after he his covert but efficient approach was countermanded by traitor sharif.

Stop these lies,they are not helping us.

 

[Dreamer.]

Inshallah some one will post this thread soon.... & title will be like
Is Qaid e Azam responsible for the present weak position of Pakistan over IOK?
WTF is going on fellows???? U will suicide if tomorrow india declared GB as there integral part????

What a completely ignorant and mindless post.

@MastanKhan @Signalian

Its also the fault of the Kashmiris, we tried two times to help them, but they never took the chance to join our hands in 1965 war and 1999 war, instead of the Kashmiris always betrayed the Pakistan Army! They now get what they deserve, sound harsh but as you see its the reality and was a question of time!


1999 was the last chance for them:


View attachment 572738 View attachment 572739 View attachment 572740

@MastanKhan @Signalian

Its also the fault of the Kashmiris, we tried two times to help them, but they never took the chance to join our hands in 1965 war and 1999 war, instead of the Kashmiris always betrayed the Pakistan Army! They now get what they deserve, sound harsh but as you see its the reality and was a question of time!


1999 was the last chance for them:


View attachment 572738 View attachment 572739 View attachment 572740

And some fools even rated this post thanks. Ignorance really has no limits....

 

[blain2]

Pakistan should do nothing more than what it is doing right now because the only thing that will make a difference on the ground is what goes on behind the scenes/covertly. Modi/India have played their card and in their minds this is a masterstroke. Let this play out and then one can objectively decide how good/bad this step will be for either country.

One thing for sure, the problem is far from resolved and while Pakistan may have been going easy on pushing some buttons, the gloves will come off no matter what the Indians do because there is no way that Pakistan will let this internationally recognized issue go by the wayside, regardless of the Amreekis, Khaleejis or Cheeni weighing-in or not.

Those suggesting that we have no friends to support us need to realize that Pakistani foreign policy has weathered far worse situations with regards to Kashmir in the past with no material support from anyone. OIC and the likes don't change situation on the ground. That change is affected through Pakistani support of Kashmiris which will continue unabated and may even be ratcheted up. If we think our economy is a mess and that we don't have friends, we need to look no further than Iran and Turkey. When their core interests are at stake, they are willing to be the most sanctioned of the sanctioned, and they are willing to take on the Russians and get into a shooting war and they are willing to forego F-35s among other things. This is the kind of stuff that real nations are made of. I am not proposing we go to war here but I see this wretched excuse being made to sit this one out on the pretext of "our economy is not good".

Indians will try to ape Gaza/West Bank in the Kashmir Valley but like with Israel, there is no surety of pervasive security and also this recipe will not work due to the geographical dynamics involved. Unlike Gaza/West Bank, IoK cannot be bottled up and fortunately for the Kashmiris, they are not all alone without support. They will get moral, financial and other support from Pakistan.

Lastly, Pakistan's Kashmir policy is an amalgamation of all the leaders and their policies on Kashmir. One cannot single out any one individual because there has been consistency in the Kashmir policy and its fundamental goals remain the same.

This is a game of chess. They have made their move, now Pakistan will re-calibrate its response and while we may not see an immediate response, there will be changes forthcoming overtly and otherwise.

 

[maithil]

India should send a Thank You note to Musharraf. And some get well soon flowers as well. If not for Kargil, Pakistan would have got support from at least some countries.

 

[Psychic]

And some fools even rated this post thanks. Ignorance really has no limits....

Indeed.

Do I need to remind your highness about the fate of operation Gibralter and the part played by people of IOK in that failure?

India should send a Thank You note to Musharraf. And some get well soon flowers as well. If not for Kargil, Pakistan would have got support from at least some countries.

So Pakistan has no support from any country?

Pakistan isolated, Moe D 56 inch bosoms jindabad.

 

[ice_man]

Must we blame somebody for whatever is wrong with our policies? Don’t you think it is about time we stop the blame game and face the ground realities? Let me be blunt:

Pakistan is neither strong enough nor likely to so in the near future to take Kashmir by force of arms. At this moment in time, Pakistan’s economy cannot sustain a full-fledged war with India for more than a couple weeks (even if that!).

Indian economy is far larger than Pakistan and India is a bigger trading partner for nearly all the major countries of the world including the Muslim world. This includes Turkey; total Pakistan /Turkey annual trade volume is barely $600-million whereas India / Turkey trade volume is about $8-billion. Therefore, Lip Service aside; when it comes to the crunch, very few countries would support Pakistan against India in crucial matters.

India is fully aware of these facts. Hence a bigoted person like Modi will do whatever he likes in Kashmir and get away with it.

Modi had the removal of Kashmir special status in his election manifesto; Kargil or no Kargil he would have carried it out. Why blame Musharraf or anyone else?

Agreed `100% our economy is a sham and our political bickering is currently at its highest.

However, we cannot blame farooq abdullah and mufti muneeba too who believed in appeasement of India as a way to survive.

Today they are the ones who suffer directly they never supported pakistan or our will to help.

However, time for us to fix our economy and let the kashmiris struggle for themselves for now let's see what they actually want.

No one is coming for their help or ours. We have to do it ourselves. Time to fix the economy period.

 

[niaz]

India should send a Thank You note to Musharraf. And some get well soon flowers as well. If not for Kargil, Pakistan would have got support from at least some countries.

Hon sir,

You can blame Musharraf all you want, but the reason India gives for not accepting mediation is because in the Shimla Agreement of July 02, 1972 signed by Prime Minister Indira Gandhi and President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan it was agreed that:

“ That the two countries are resolved to settle their differences by peaceful means through bilateral negotiations or by any other peaceful means mutually agreed upon between them. Pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation and both shall prevent the organization, assistance or encouragement of any acts detrimental to the maintenance of peaceful and harmonious relations”.

Full text: https://peacemaker.un.org/sites/peacemaker.un.org/files/IN PK_720702_Simla Agreement.pdf

India claims that this agreement supersedes the UN resolutions and hence excludes all third party mediation.

Was Bhutto to blame? Certainly not.

Pakistan has lost 1971 war & 90,000 Pakistani POWs had been rotting in Indian jails for more than 6 months. ZAB had no bargaining chips or leverage hence he was negotiating from a very weak position. Indira Gandhi was insisting that Pakistan recognize IOK as undisputed Indian territory. IMHO he did a very good job and managed to bring Pakistani POWs home by only agreeing to the above. The real culprit is the GOP policies of 25 years that gave the impression to the Bengalis that West Pakistanis considered East Pakistan as their colony.

However, everyone is free to have their own opinion, just keep in mind that RSS (parent organization of the BJP) killed Mahatma Gandhi because he was too soft on the Muslims. Also, BJP had won only 2 Lok Sabha Seats in 1984, but after the famous Advani ‘Ratra’ following the Babri Mosque Affair’ of 1992; it won a landslide victory in 1996 elections. BJP, therefore, is essentially a ‘Hindutva’ party and can only win playing the anti-Muslim & with anti-Pakistan rhetoric.

 

[WarKa DaNG]

Blame someone, deny everything

 

[Tameem]

Indians will try to ape Gaza/West Bank in the Kashmir Valley but like with Israel, there is no surety of pervasive security and also this recipe will not work due to the geographical dynamics involved. Unlike Gaza/West Bank, IoK cannot be bottled up and fortunately for the Kashmiris, they are not all alone without support. They will get moral, financial and other support from Pakistan.

Indeed, Kashmir borders with Pakistan not Egypt the coward

 

[blain2]

Those cowards who surrendered with smiling faces should have been let to rot in the indian jails for the rest of their pathetic lives, there was no need to repatriate them to Pakistan and do a stupid shimla agreement in exchange of those pathetic 90,000 losers.

I am sad to say this but I think if you have not served a day in uniform or been on the receiving end of incarceration, such statements are disrespectful.

Those who did serve and had to go through the ignominy of their incarceration at the orders of higher ups would never take kindly to such comments.

Just because you are angry in the moment does not mean that you get to insult these veterans of Pakistan. They fought hard and till the point they were "commanded" to surrender. The ones who were there gave far more than what anyone of us can afford to give here on these boards.

 

[delta2]

The only real threat for Pakistan will occur if Nawaz Sharif Butt and his cronies aren't hanged to death for their crimes.

PMLN and PPP are full of murderous criminals, gangs and mafias. This is the biggest threat to Pakistan's security and as such the biggest weapon for India, even more lethal than any nukes. In my opinion the only real option for India against Pakistan is to try to somehow create a breathing room for these dangerous mafias masquerading as political parties while appeasing the voters at home.

The quality of the forum is being degraded by threads like this. The mods need to be more active.

Not hanging Nawaz Sharif and his gang was the only mistake made by Musharraf.

 

[batmannow]

Musharf did tried to get in, to the kargil rightly, cause any negociations only happens when ur enemy thinks u r so powerfull tht u can take it by hook and crook, and Thts why vajpai agreed on a solution in kashmir which was to let kashmir a independent state with out any army, pak would be doing the same by pulling out thier troops bt tht all was rattled by Nawaz Sharif when he went begging to Clinton to stop musharf in kargil war and Thts why Nawaz has good relations with modi Jee, under Nawaz Sharif pak didn't had a foreign minster so no hurdle can come for india???
Let's point out a spade?