Is India handing over Blank Cheque to Russia for Pak-Fa Project ?

[oFFbEAT]

Handing over 'blank-cheques' every now and then to those money hungry 'friends', keeps them happy momentarily........

BUT, If the money is invested in R&D in India, the jet could be built in India as well(build top notch R&D facilities, keep the best talents of India in India by paying them equal to their foreign counterparts)........

 

[kalanirnay]

Its not a strawman argument,their achievements which are almost nil speaks the volumes.
I need not offer any argument

I am talking about R&D and your talking about Production agencies.

You are not offering any arguments, only rants.

 

[he-man]

I am talking about R&D and your talking about Production agencies.

You are not offering any arguments, only rants.

U are ranting not me.
Drdo/HAL do their own r&d and then produce.

We don't have seperate r&d centres and production agencies at the present setup.Public enterprises do both the things and actually suck at both big time
Go and check the number of drdo labs etc and then offer a better argument.

Handing over 'blank-cheques' every now and then to those money hungry 'friends', keeps them happy momentarily........

BUT, If the money is invested in R&D in India, the jet could be built in India as well(build top notch R&D facilities, keep the best talents of India in India by paying them equal to their foreign counterparts)........

only problem being it will take 15 years and then world would have moved on to 6 th generation.
LCA 2.0 ONCE AGAIN.

jv is the best approach

 

[oFFbEAT]

only problem being it will take 15 years and then world would have moved on to 6 th generation.
LCA 2.0 ONCE AGAIN.

jv is the best approach

NO, it will not take 15 years if we follow the procedure I've mentioned above......afterall, those guys contributing in top notch R&D in the West(due to which they are progressing so fast) are some of our top talents......we need to hold them back by providing them similar opportunities in India.........

JV is good only if your partner is willing to work with you in equal terms..........but, what I've heard so far regarding PAK-FA project is that Russia only wants India's money.............it doesn't remain a JV that way, it becomes similar to purchasing things, you give money, you buy a 6th gen Jet......they do all the R&D and hence gain knowledge and expertise with your money........

 

[kalanirnay]

U are ranting not me.
Drdo/HAL do their own r&d and then produce.

We don't have seperate r&d centres and production agencies at the present setup.Public enterprises do both the things and actually suck at both big time
Go and check the number of drdo labs etc and then offer a better argument.

You mean DRDO is a production agency ? what production activity has it done till now ?

HAL is an independent organization who is required to make a profit. So apart from its regular manufacturing, it has a separate R&D budget, similar to Boeing or Airbus. It has nothing to do with DRDO.

What has the number of DRDO labs got to do with anything ?

 

[he-man]

You mean DRDO is a production agency ? what production activity has it done till now ?

HAL is an independent organization who is required to make a profit. So apart from its regular manufacturing, it has a separate R&D budget, similar to Boeing or Airbus. It has nothing to do with DRDO.

What has the number of DRDO labs got to do with anything ?

Oh boy...........who do u think produces the stuff that drdo does r&d in??

NO, it will not take 15 years if we follow the procedure I've mentioned above......afterall, those guys contributing in top notch R&D in the West(due to which they are progressing so fast) are some of our top talents......we need to hold them back by providing them similar opportunities in India.........

Not gonna happen ...............will take a decade or so.

 

[kalanirnay]

only problem being it will take 15 years and then world would have moved on to 6 th generation.
LCA 2.0 ONCE AGAIN.

jv is the best approach

JV works when you bring some unique expertise to the table. Else you are only a funding agency. Not a partner.

To develop expertise in any area, R&D is required and then we need to have a story of successfully productising that R&D.

We need to run to be in the same place. That is how it works. Does not mean we stop running.

Oh boy...........who do u think produces the stuff that drdo does r&d in??

Not gonna happen ...............will take a decade or so.

Errr... HAL, ASTRA, Ananth tech, BEL, BHEL, BDL, Ordinance factories etc. Certainly not DRDO

 

[he-man]

JV works when you bring some unique expertise to the table. Else you are only a funding agency. Not a partner.

To develop expertise in any area, R&D is required and then we need to have a story of successfully productising that R&D.

We need to run to be in the same place. That is how it works. Does not mean we stop running.

We don't have the money to do our own r&d,neither the required talent,u are overestimating the capabilities we have right now.
We could not develop even a simple pulse doppler radar for tejas despite no funding problem and u expect us to develop aesa all of a sudden??

Ain't gonna happen.

And regarding engine development we are atleast 5 years behind china,forget about russia and usa or france.

We are simply no where and this will remain till we privatise the public cos and invest money in them.
Even then it will take years to deliver and by then world would have moved on from here.

This jv is a good opportunity,even if HAL can contribute 15 % which obviously they cannot i would be extremely happy.
On paper HAL can contribute even 50% but the stuff will be inferior the russian/western systems and thats why they will get this small share only.
We cannot induct an inferior platform for the sake of Hal's share,sorry

 

[kalanirnay]

We don't have the money to do our own r&d,neither the required talent,u are overestimating the capabilities we have right now.
We could not develop even a simple pulse doppler radar for tejas despite no funding problem and u expect us to develop aesa all of a sudden??

Ain't gonna happen.

And regarding engine development we are atleast 5 years behind china,forget about russia and usa or france.

We are simply no where and this will remain till we privatise the public cos and invest money in them.
Even then it will take years to deliver and by then world would have moved on from here.

This jv is a good opportunity,even if HAL can contribute 15 % which obviously they cannot i would be extremely happy.
On paper HAL can contribute even 50% but the stuff will be inferior the russian/western systems and thats why they will get this small share only.
We cannot induct an inferior platform for the sake of Hal's share,sorry

There is no shortage of talent in a country of 1.2 billion people and million engineers.

What was the development budget for the simple pulse doppler radar ? now what is the R&D Budget for Thales ?

For MMR it was sanctioned for Rs.62.27 crore i.e. 10 million $ and completed in 2004 at a cost of Rs.105 crore i.e. 17 million $.

Developing the same thing will cost 100 to 300 million $ for SAAB.

So what is the efficiency of LRDE as compared to SAAB ?

What was the budget for developing Kaveri ? Now compare it to the budget of developing the 404 engine. It would be AT LEAST 50 times the cost of Kaveri engine development.

You pour Billions of $ into R&D then we can develop anything you can imagine and then more.

You mentioning HAL is another stawman. There are plenty of other who will take up the gamut if there is funds available.

 

[anyrandom]

Its understandable if outsiders are negative about India but its really surprising that even Indians on this forum are underestimating themsevles. Well its true that we are way behind in military technology but its not because we cannot do it but because:

1) Dependence on Public sector companies which are inefficient and corrupt.
2) Low budget for R&D.

If PSU's are disinvested and more money(10x the current amount) is poured into R&D then you would see the results.

 

[he-man]

There is no shortage of talent in a country of 1.2 billion people and million engineers.

What was the development budget for the simple pulse doppler radar ? now what is the R&D Budget for Thales ?

For MMR it was sanctioned for Rs.62.27 crore i.e. 10 million $ and completed in 2004 at a cost of Rs.105 crore i.e. 17 million $.

Developing the same thing will cost 100 to 300 million $ for SAAB.

So what is the efficiency of LRDE as compared to SAAB ?

What was the budget for developing Kaveri ? Now compare it to the budget of developing the 404 engine. It would be AT LEAST 50 times the cost of Kaveri engine development.

You pour Billions of $ into R&D then we can develop anything you can imagine and then more.

You mentioning HAL is another stawman. There are plenty of other who will take up the gamut if there is funds available.

As i said u don't even know the problems of kaveri..................even if a billion$ is sanctioned today it won't have an iota of impact.
Rest of ur statements are childish too..........finance is one of the problem and not the problem.
U will soon realize on this forum what those are

Its understandable if outsiders are negative about India but its really surprising that even Indians on this forum are underestimating themsevles. Well its true that we are way behind in military technology but its not because we cannot do it but because:

1) Dependence on Public sector companies which are inefficient and corrupt.
2) Low budget for R&D.

If PSU's are disinvested and more money(10x the current amount) is poured into R&D then you would see the results.

Neither we are gonna divest and nor we have 10 times the money to invest right now.
Otherwise what u say is absolutely correct.

Doable??

Not in this decade at least

JV works when you bring some unique expertise to the table. Else you are only a funding agency. Not a partner.

To develop expertise in any area, R&D is required and then we need to have a story of successfully productising that R&D.

We need to run to be in the same place. That is how it works. Does not mean we stop running.



Errr... HAL, ASTRA, Ananth tech, BEL, BHEL, BDL, Ordinance factories etc. Certainly not DRDO

They are all psu's and have done zilch.
All the stuff (majority) is made under tot

 

[kalanirnay]

As i said u don't even know the problems of kaveri..................even if a billion$ is sanctioned today it won't have an iota of impact.
Rest of ur statements are childish too..........finance is one of the problem and not the problem.
U will soon realize on this forum what those are

Of the six milestones for Kaveri, all been achieved, i.e. core engine demo, full engine demo, high altitude test, preliminary flight rating, type test and Flight test bed.

The FTB showed metallurgical failure. That is where R&D funds now needs to flow. In metallurgy to build better material for blades and test beds and mining of rare earth metals to be used in new metallurgy research.

It is nothing more funding cannot solve.

Rather your childish prattling and wailing is annoying.

They are all psu's and have done zilch.
All the stuff (majority) is made under tot

LOL...Prithvi Missile, Agni Missile, sonar, Akash missile, pinaka missile, SDR, Radars, EW modules, Amplifiers, small arms, Arjun tanks ALL are made by PSU and all these are in considerable numbers.

NONE of this is under ToT.

In any case you now admit DRDO is NOT a production agency ?

 

[he-man]

LOL. Of the six milestones for Kaveri all already been achieved, i.e. core engine demo, full engine demo, high altitude test, preliminary flight rating, type test and Flight test bed.

The FTB showed metallurgical failure. That is where R&D funds now needs to flow. In metallurgy to build better material for blades and test beds and mining of rare earth metals to be used in new metallurgy research.

It is nothing more funding cannot solve.

Rather your childish prattling and wailing is annoying.

Expected post from a newbie...........its a complete failure and a dead end.
Reason??

1)Metallurgy as u pointed out here rightly
2)The design itself----Its a varible cycle engine and not a conventional fixed bypass one.

There has been only 2 other examples of this tech anywhere in the world
a)al-41 that went into su-47 tech demonstrator but was shelved due to overweight issues
b)A prototype by ge,usa

In a nutshell we started chewing more we could manage and it ius irreparable.
At the very most it may power aura uav but looking at its dry weight this looks suspect.
The dry thrust at 50 kn is good bt t/w is not good enough for other engines of its class,case in point the m-88 of rafale.

And in the end,,,,please stop overestimating our capabilities.
U will be surprised how much we are lagging behind even china....................forget west and russia

 

[kalanirnay]

Expected post from a newbie...........its a complete failure and a dead end.
Reason??

1)Metallurgy as u pointed out here rightly
2)The design itself----Its a varible cycle engine and not a conventional fixed bypass one.

There has been only 2 other examples of this tech anywhere in the world
a)al-41 that went into su-47 tech demonstrator but was shelved due to overweight issues
b)A prototype by ge,usa

In a nutshell we started chewing more we could manage and it ius irreparable.
At the very most it may power aura uav but looking at its dry weight this looks suspect.
The dry thrust at 50 kn is good bt t/w is not good enough for other engines of its class,case in point the m-88 of rafale.

And in the end,,,,please stop overestimating our capabilities.
U will be surprised how much we are lagging behind even china....................forget west and russia

Metallurgy is not a "failure" its a set back, one which was know to be our weak link.

Pray tell us why and how a conventional fixed bypass engine is better than a Variable cycle engine. Since you have claimed it to be so, I am sure you can justify your statement too.

Since we are chewing, it it too early to state if we have chewed more than we can manage. There no harm in trying and failing, True Failure is when you stop trying

Reality is kaveri is almost ready to be used in Aura. Our next attempt is going to be more successful.

Capabilities of china are pure speculation and its people like you who push that myth. There is no open source conformation of any of their capabilities. In any case your logic is just because they are ahead we stop trying ?

 

[he-man]

Metallurgy is not a "failure" its a set back, one which was know to be our weak link.

Pray tell us why and how a conventional fixed bypass engine is better than a Variable cycle engine. Since you have claimed it to be so, I am sure you can justify your statement too.

Since we are chewing, it it too early to state if we have chewed more than we can manage. There no harm in trying and failing, True Failure is when you stop trying

Reality is kaveri is almost ready to be used in Aura. Our next attempt is going to be more successful.

Capabilities of china are pure speculation and its people like you who push that myth. There is no open source conformation of any of their capabilities. In any case your logic is just because they are ahead we stop trying ?

Man u are not dealing with some fanboy here,,,i know what i am posting.
Do some research and u will know what i mean.

As i stated earlier till we privatise these psu's and do something about reservation of 50%,,,no amount of money will help.