Iranian Diaspora

[Arian]

I would not go so far as to say average Iranian but generally speaking, Iranian middle class in Iran does live better than German middle class in Germany. It is actually the same phenomenon in Pakistan.

Lower income class is better in Germany/Europe/US, if you are middle class it is better in Iran/Pakistan.

Middle class in Iran/Pakistan can basically afford mini palaces for the same price as a nasty apartment in Germany.

On the flip side, if you are low income/poor you will be treated like dirt in Iran/Pakistan whereas you will be treated better in Germany/US with access to same basic social services.

Ironically most people who are wealthy in Iran/Pakistan will initially become poorer when they immigrate to west while the low income people from Iran/Pakistan quickly find a job and become richer when they move to west.

Iran has a very large middle class. So, an average Iranian belongs to the middle class. But I won't really say that the average Iranian from the middle class lives better than an average German in the middle class.

Houses in Iran are bigger than houses in Germany. But is that the only thing that matters?

It depends on your job though. Some jobs are better paid in Iran, some jobs are better paid in Germany or Canada.

 

[Aspen]

Iran has a very large middle class. So, an average Iranian belongs to the middle class. But I won't really say that the average Iranian from the middle class lives better than an average German in the middle class.

Houses in Iran are bigger than houses in Germany. But is that the only thing that matters?

It depends on your job though. Some jobs are better paid in Iran, some jobs are better paid in Germany or Canada.

Maybe Germans "live" better but its not that clear cut.

Even in my own situation, yes infrastructure and legal system here in US are far better for me than in Pakistan. But I know that there are some things that are clear cut better for me in Pakistan than in US. Houses are bigger in Pakistan, people are friendlier, investment opportunities are wide open. Maybe it seems trivial but this stuff adds up and it matters. Other issues like education and political situation are a shitshow in both countries and that is bad both in east and west. Things like job market are also a big factor. Some people can't get a job in east, some can't get a job in west, some get both, others get neither.

US or Germany is not definitively better for life quality than Iran or Pakistan. It really depends on what job you have and whether you are middle class. There are definitely situations where your life quality would be much better off in Pakistan or Iran but a lot of people wrongly assume that it will always be better if they move to the west but this is not really the case. For a lot of people, their life can and does get worse after the move to the west. Economic hardship exists in US and Germany too if you're not careful. Credit card debt and college debt is a bitch and its much worse in west than anywhere in Iran or Pakistan.

Especially in case of jobs for young people and entrepreneurs in Iran, I would say that sanctions are actually a blessing in disguise for their startup economy because Iranians have the unique ability to copy almost any US business by creating an Iranian version since US copyright is not recognized in Iran unlike other countries. This would never be allowed in Pakistan or other countries but Iranians are very lucky. Since US companies are banned from Iran, Iranian entrepreneurs are very lucky that they live in one of the only countries in the world where they can start their own Iranian companies without competing against US giant corporations due to sanctions. So I see a very bright future for young Iranian entrepreneurs because they can create Iranians versions of US companies and US companies will never be allowed to compete with them. For example look at Snapp which is Iranian version of Uber.

I think a lot of people have illusion that moving to US/Germany solves a lot of problems with Iran/Pakistan which it does, but what they don't realize is that it solves all the old problems and creates a bunch of new problems that make you want to move back home.

 

[Raghfarm007]

This is by far the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a long time. Sorry.

Dont be sorry..... but please explaine why it is the most ridiclous thing you have heard....

 

[aryobarzan]

1-Comparing iranian wages and rents with US or Canada is totally wrong and miss leading. YOU CAN NOT CONVERT IRANIAN SALARIES TO US DOLLAR AND THEN SAY IRANIANS MAKE SUCH LOW $$...AND THEREFORE THEY ARE POOR.

2- if iranian middle class is living better or at par standard of living lets say with Germans...then the only other question you need to answer is what percentage of iranian population is in that category...

 

[Aspen]

Sometimes I wonder about how the people who got exiled from Iran ever came to terms with not being allowed back into Iran again.

I cannot ever imagine being exiled from Pakistan, it would be like a death sentence for me. Being exiled from your country of birth is like not being allowed to see your mother again. I don't know how all those exiled Iranians

1-Comparing iranian wages and rents with US or Canada is totally wrong and miss leading. YOU CAN NOT CONVERT IRANIAN SALARIES TO US DOLLAR AND THEN SAY IRANIANS MAKE SUCH LOW $$...AND THEREFORE THEY ARE POOR.

2- if iranian middle class is living better or at par standard of living lets say with Germans...then the only other question you need to answer is what percentage of iranian population is in that category...

If Iran has a large middle class then I would assume that is most of the Iranian population?

 

[Arian]

Maybe Germans "live" better but its not that clear cut.

Even in my own situation, yes infrastructure and legal system here in US are far better for me than in Pakistan. But I know that there are some things that are clear cut better for me in Pakistan than in US. Houses are bigger in Pakistan, people are friendlier, investment opportunities are wide open. Maybe it seems trivial but this stuff adds up and it matters. Other issues like education and political situation are a shitshow in both countries and that is bad both in east and west. Things like job market are also a big factor. Some people can't get a job in east, some can't get a job in west, some get both, others get neither.

US or Germany is not definitively better for life quality than Iran or Pakistan. It really depends on what job you have and whether you are middle class. There are definitely situations where your life quality would be much better off in Pakistan or Iran but a lot of people wrongly assume that it will always be better if they move to the west but this is not really the case. For a lot of people, their life can and does get worse after the move to the west. Economic hardship exists in US and Germany too if you're not careful. Credit card debt and college debt is a bitch and its much worse in west than anywhere in Iran or Pakistan.

Especially in case of jobs for young people and entrepreneurs in Iran, I would say that sanctions are actually a blessing in disguise for their startup economy because Iranians have the unique ability to copy almost any US business by creating an Iranian version since US copyright is not recognized in Iran unlike other countries. This would never be allowed in Pakistan or other countries but Iranians are very lucky. Since US companies are banned from Iran, Iranian entrepreneurs are very lucky that they live in one of the only countries in the world where they can start their own Iranian companies without competing against US giant corporations due to sanctions. So I see a very bright future for young Iranian entrepreneurs because they can create Iranians versions of US companies and US companies will never be allowed to compete with them. For example look at Snapp which is Iranian version of Uber.

I think a lot of people have illusion that moving to US/Germany solves a lot of problems with Iran/Pakistan which it does, but what they don't realize is that it solves all the old problems and creates a bunch of new problems that make you want to move back home.

1-Comparing iranian wages and rents with US or Canada is totally wrong and miss leading. YOU CAN NOT CONVERT IRANIAN SALARIES TO US DOLLAR AND THEN SAY IRANIANS MAKE SUCH LOW $$...AND THEREFORE THEY ARE POOR.

2- if iranian middle class is living better or at par standard of living lets say with Germans...then the only other question you need to answer is what percentage of iranian population is in that category...

Dont be sorry..... but please explaine why it is the most ridiclous thing you have heard....

Fair enough.
The minimum wage in Iran is 2,610,427 Tomans and the minimum wage in Germany is 1,584 Euros.

Now let's talk about purchase power parity in Berlin and Tehran. Let's convert the minimum wage in each country to the equal amount of the same good in each country:

Tehran: 150 kilograms of apples
Berlin: 633 kilograms of apples

Tehran: 290 liters of milk
Berlin: 1,667 liters of milk

Tehran: 130 kilograms of rice
Berlin: 792 kilograms of rice

Tehran: 124 dozens of eggs
Berlin: 723 dozens of eggs

Tehran: 21 kilograms of beef round
Berlin: 136 kilograms of beef round

Tehran: 1,740 liters of gasoline
Berlin: 1,150 liters of gasoline

Tehran: You can't find anything inside Tehran with the minimum salary
Berlin: Housing accounts for about 60% of the minimum salary

Do you see where I'm going or do I need to continue? Because it takes time to do the calculations, but I think you can clearly see where I'm going.

It seems to me that the purchase power of someone with the minimum wage in Berlin is nearly 5 times higher than the same person with the minimum wage in Tehran.

 

[Raghfarm007]

1-Comparing iranian wages and rents with US or Canada is totally wrong and miss leading. YOU CAN NOT CONVERT IRANIAN SALARIES TO US DOLLAR AND THEN SAY IRANIANS MAKE SUCH LOW $$...AND THEREFORE THEY ARE POOR.

2- if iranian middle class is living better or at par standard of living lets say with Germans...then the only other question you need to answer is what percentage of iranian population is in that category...

Of course it is a very dumb thing to compare incomes of Iran to the west..... yes, the incomes in Iran are lower.... but they also dont pay half of their sallaris on direct tax.... they get heavy subsedies on Gas, electricity, petrol, bread and water..... while in the west people have to pay high prices for these basic needs. People who have lived in Gemany know how most people are affraid of their gas and electricity bills.

In Germany not only do the average people live in much smaller houses, and often shared housing with strangers, but officially 49% of the population do not own their own home. This is very different from Iran where around 70% own their homes outright, and pay no tax on their homes... unlike in the west.

I am NOT saying that the average Iranian has an equal living standards to the German.... what I have seen for myself is that the living sandards in Iran are HIGHER for the average person.

 

[Raghfarm007]

Fair enough.
The minimum wage in Iran is 2,610,427 Tomans and the minimum wage in Germany is 1,584 Euros.

Now let's talk about purchase power parity in Berlin and Tehran. Let's convert the minimum wage in each country to the equal amount of the same good in each country:

Tehran: 150 kilograms of apples
Berlin: 633 kilograms of apples

Tehran: 290 liters of milk
Berlin: 1,667 liters of milk

Tehran: 130 kilograms of rice
Berlin: 792 kilograms of rice

Tehran: 124 dozens of eggs
Berlin: 723 dozens of eggs

Tehran: 21 kilograms of beef round
Berlin: 136 kilograms of beef round

Tehran: 1,740 liters of gasoline
Berlin: 1,150 liters of gasoline

Tehran: You can't find anything inside Tehran with the minimum salary
Berlin: Housing accounts for about 60% of the minimum salary

Do you see where I'm going or do I need to continue? Because it takes time to do the calculations, but I think you can clearly see where I'm going.

It seems to me that the purchase power of someone with the minimum wage in Berlin is nearly 5 times higher than the same person with the minimum wage in Tehran.

I see... so my original statment was that Iranian housing is much better than the average housing in Germany.... and in response you provide some very questionable numbers on food consumption?!!!!!

Also..... are you really telling me that your unbacked numbers show that Germans eat 6 times more rice than Iranians????!!!!

Please tell me where you found these numbers from?

 

[Arian]

I see... so my original statment was that Iranian housing is much better than the average housing in Germany.... and in response you provide some very questionable numbers on food consumption?!!!!!

Also..... are you really telling me that your unbacked numbers show that Germans eat 6 times more rice than Iranians????!!!!

Please tell me where you found these numbers from?

Are you trolling now?

Questionable numbers? Please tell me which one is questionable? I will do the calculations for you and we will fact-check it together.

I found the prices for each item in Tehran from websites like digikala and okala (which are famous online super markets in Iran that sell goods on sale most of the time).

I found the prices for Berlin from numbeo and I can confirm that they're very close to the reality. We can fact-check them if you wish.

The minimum wage in both countries are official numbers that can be verified and fact-checked very simply by googling.

How about the fact that Iran's GDP per capita (PPP) has reached almost one-fifth of Germany's in 2020?

 

[aryobarzan]

Fair enough.
The minimum wage in Iran is 2,610,427 Tomans and the minimum wage in Germany is 1,584 Euros.

Now let's talk about purchase power parity in Berlin and Tehran. Let's convert the minimum wage in each country to the equal amount of the same good in each country:

Tehran: 150 kilograms of apples
Berlin: 633 kilograms of apples

Tehran: 290 liters of milk
Berlin: 1,667 liters of milk

Tehran: 130 kilograms of rice
Berlin: 792 kilograms of rice

Tehran: 124 dozens of eggs
Berlin: 723 dozens of eggs

Tehran: 21 kilograms of beef round
Berlin: 136 kilograms of beef round

Tehran: 1,740 liters of gasoline
Berlin: 1,150 liters of gasoline

Tehran: You can't find anything inside Tehran with the minimum salary
Berlin: Housing accounts for about 60% of the minimum salary

Do you see where I'm going or do I need to continue? Because it takes time to do the calculations, but I think you can clearly see where I'm going.

It seems to me that the purchase power of someone with the minimum wage in Berlin is nearly 5 times higher than the same person with the minimum wage in Tehran.

you forgot to take into account the tax that german pays from his minimum wage..+ if he has to pay for medical bills+ how much he has to pay for his car gasoline+electricity/heating +..etc..etc

Petrol in Iran: 10 cents per liter.. Canada: $1.00 (100 cents) probably $2 in Germany.
A plate of chelokebob in Tehran (as per one american tourist): 30 cents..Canada..$20 dollars (2000 cents) I paid 6 months ago.
In general People in do not pay tax in Iran..so they have more disposable income..

This is a complex issue and It needs economist to argue that but I know one thing..even with the sanctions and mismanagement of the economy with this "green card" government , Iranians look healthy and happy (may be not as happy as they could be)..and remember this

Iran is right now operating at 10% capacity.(SL words not mine)..Imagine if Iran had no sanction and a competent government!!

 

[Arian]

you forgot to take into account the tax that german pays from his minimum wage..+ if he has to pay for medical bills+ how much he has to pay for his car gasoline+electricity/heating +..etc..etc

Petrol in Iran: 10 cents per liter.. Canada: $1.00 (100 cents) probably $2 in Germany.
A plate of chelokebob in Tehran (as per one american tourist): 30 cents..Canada..$20 dollars (2000 cents) I paid 6 months ago.
In general People in do not pay tax in Iran..so they have more disposable income..

This is a complex issue and It needs economist to argue that but I know one thing..even with the sanctions and mismanagement of the economy with this "green card" government , Iranians look healthy and happy (may be not as happy as they could be)..and remember this

Iran is right now operating at 10% capacity.(SL words not mine)..Imagine if Iran had no sanction and a competent government!!

I didn't deduce tax or insurance from the minimum wage in Iran either. Did I?

If I had done that, the minimum net wage in Iran would've been reduced to 2,427,697 Tomans (after deducing 7% for social security). The minimum net wage in Germany would be reduced to 1,394 Euros. Now do the calculations again. Do you see a noticeable change honestly?

I already calculated petrol in both countries. Doesn't it bother you at all that a person with minimum wage cannot rent even a small apartment (let's say 40 meters squared) in Tehran?

Healthcare in Europe is not expensive at all. It's probably cheaper than healthcare in Iran. Energy is more expensive in Europe, as I included it already, but what about the internet? How much does 1 Gbps of bandwidth cost in Iran? Do they even offer that much bandwidth in Iran? They don't.

Who told you that people in Iran do not pay taxes? People in Iran pay from 10% to 20% of their salary as tax right after receiving their monthly salary. Only really low incomes are exempted from tax. People also pay VAT in Iran which is 9% for most businesses and goods. They also pay many other kinds of taxes all the time.

 

[aryobarzan]

Just to conclude our discussion and I thank you for your calculations I know it take effort to do that..
My closing statement is I re print this.

Iran is right now operating at 10% capacity.(SL words not mine)..Imagine if Iran had no sanction and a competent government!!

 

[Arian]

Just to conclude our discussion and I thank you for your calculations I know it take effort to do that..
My closing statement is I re print this.

Iran is right now operating at 10% capacity.(SL words not mine)..Imagine if Iran had no sanction and a competent government!!

Yes, sanctions have had an effect on the Iranian economy, but mismanagement has had a much worse impact on our economy.
People have lost 50% of their purchase power since 2018. That's terrible.

 

[Raghfarm007]

LOL... please leave economic matters to economists....otherwise you will sound like a fool as demonstrated above.....

You know full well that after the average person in Germany pays 50% of their wages in DIRECT taxes.... so in reality they take home half of the number you posted..... then there are the high rents in Germany.

In reality after paying the rents and taxes, the Average German doesnt have much to live on.....

This is exactly why such high numbers of Germans will never be able to own their own homes, and huge numbers have to rent one room in a shared house. This is why the averge German doesnt dare to use electricity or trn the heat on in their house or even drive a car.....most people would rather walk or cycle than spend money on petrol!

You can use bullcrap statistics or look at the reality....

 

[Arian]

LOL... please leave economic matters to economists....otherwise you will sound like a fool as demonstrated above.....

You know full well that after the average person in Germany pays 50% of their wages in DIRECT taxes.... so in reality they take home half of the number you posted..... then there are the high rents in Germany.

In reality after paying the rents and taxes, the Average German doesnt have much to live on.....

This is exactly why such high numbers of Germans will never be able to own their own homes, and huge numbers have to rent one room in a shared house. This is why the averge German doesnt dare to use electricity or trn the heat on in their house or even drive a car.....most people would rather walk or cycle than spend money on petrol!

You can use bullcrap statistics or look at the reality....

Man, the only one that sounds like a fool is you. And not even a funny one.

Taxing in Germany depends on your yearly income. For the minimum wage, your deductions will be about 12%. It is nowhere near 50%. But what can I say to someone whose flag is Belarus? lol

Your next claim will probably be that living in Belarus is better than living in Germany lol

The reality in Iran is much worse than what the statistics show actually. Some workers haven't even received that insignificant minimum wage for months. Like workers in Haft-Tappeh.