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Indian Navy looks for AIP and new combat suite for its HDW submarine fleet

angeldemon_007

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Indian Navy is looking at upgrading its HDW submarine fleet, the Shishumar class diesel-electric submarines. Commodore (Retd.) Ranjit B Rai a naval analyst avers that ” No modern Navy can do without submarines that can remain submerged for long periods to maintain stealth. The two options are the expensive nuclear propulsion or Air Independent Propulsion(AIP) for diesel boats. The Indian Navy is looking to install an AIP plug and upgrade the combat suite for its HDW 1500 submarines going in for long refit in a modernisation programme and have reviewed AIP systems of the French MESMA that works on ethanol, German Fuel Cell and Kokums Sterling Engine that Singapore has selected, and DRDO has been working on an indigenous AIP. France, USA and UK have no diesel submarines in their fleet, nor operate AIP”.

DRDO has already successfully developed a AIP prototype and is building a land based AIP system for demonstration purpose. One of the key differentiator of DRDO AIP is the fuel and zero discharge in the water. The two main issues of AIP revolves around the amount of fuel being carried around and discharges which increases the infra red signature.

The IKL Gabler HDW 1500 submarines were built by the Mazagon Docks Limited and were commissioned between 1986 and 1994. The four sumbarines INS Shishumar, INS Shankush, INS Shalki, INS Shanku were subsequently upgraded with German Atlas Electronix suites, periscopes and Rhode Schwarz communications.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::
 
Thats a NEWS...Shishumar class will be upgraded with AIP ..? I wonder if that is feasible or, not..
 
Thats a NEWS...Shishumar class will be upgraded with AIP ..? I wonder if that is feasible or, not..

How embarrassing for IN, they could have done it years ago with a procurement of 6 x new U 214 subs in the last sub procurement and now they seems to realise their mistake.
It is feasible to upgrade the older subs with it, but it's complicated, because you have to cut the sub in half to integrate the new parts. They did it for the Greek navy before, but it was reported the upgrade ran into problems.
 
How embarrassing for IN, they could have done it years ago with a procurement of 6 x new U 214 subs in the last sub procurement and now they seems to realise their mistake.
It is feasible to upgrade the older subs with it, but it's complicated, because you have to cut the sub in half to integrate the new parts. They did it for the Greek navy before, but it was reported the upgrade ran into problems.

Main problem is our system I think MoD should allow our arm forces that they can take these decisions by their own (like upgrade)
 
How embarrassing for IN, they could have done it years ago with a procurement of 6 x new U 214 subs in the last sub procurement and now they seems to realise their mistake.
It is feasible to upgrade the older subs with it, but it's complicated, because you have to cut the sub in half to integrate the new parts. They did it for the Greek navy before, but it was reported the upgrade ran into problems.

IN wanted to have 6 Shishumar class subs. But with Pokhran the last two subs were cancelled. After that IN started to think big with Scorpenes and P-75I..They seem to have realized their mistake and lets hope everything works out just fine..
 
Main problem is our system I think MoD should allow our arm forces that they can take these decisions by their own (like upgrade)

No...Top brass of armed forces are already too corrupt...Giving them a free hand is not a good idea..
 
Main problem is our system I think MoD should allow our arm forces that they can take these decisions by their own (like upgrade)

I agree with Jha that our forces already have a problem with bribery, so they need someone above who keeps them in check. Imo MoD is giving the forces even too much freedom and should even take more control on the new procurements. For example IAF, IN and ICG have 3 different tenders for amphibious aircrafts, although MoD could easily combine it. Same issue on the LUH side, IA and IAF will have the big LUH competition for 197 helicopter, but IN did not joined and has another one for 60, just like ICG has one and most of the competitors are the same. If MoD would combine these things we we would see less bad planings of competitions, less delays and more cost-effectivity.


IN wanted to have 6 Shishumar class subs. But with Pokhran the last two subs were cancelled. After that IN started to think big with Scorpenes and P-75I..They seem to have realized their mistake and lets hope everything works out just fine..

As far as I know, IN ordered 4 Shishumar class subs and had the option for 2 more, but they didn't took it and opened the competition where the Scorpene subs won. HDW in that competition offered the AIP upgrade for the Shishumars and 6 new U214, reportedly for less than the Scorpenes costed, I guess they offer something similar now with the new competition. The problem this time is, that DCNS now has an advantage with Scorpenes already beeing build in India and the last few coming with AIP as well, which would make it easier for IN to operate just one type of new "foreign" subs.
 
I agree with Jha that our forces already have a problem with bribery, so they need someone above who keeps them in check. Imo MoD is giving the forces even too much freedom and should even take more control on the new procurements. For example IAF, IN and ICG have 3 different tenders for amphibious aircrafts, although MoD could easily combine it. Same issue on the LUH side, IA and IAF will have the big LUH competition for 197 helicopter, but IN did not joined and has another one for 60, just like ICG has one and most of the competitors are the same. If MoD would combine these things we we would see less bad planings of competitions, less delays and more cost-effectivity.




As far as I know, IN ordered 4 Shishumar class subs and had the option for 2 more, but they didn't took it and opened the competition where the Scorpene subs won. HDW in that competition offered the AIP upgrade for the Shishumars and 6 new U214, reportedly for less than the Scorpenes costed, I guess they offer something similar now with the new competition. The problem this time is, that DCNS now has an advantage with Scorpenes already beeing build in India and the last few coming with AIP as well, which would make it easier for IN to operate just one type of new "foreign" subs.

They did take it but then POKHRAN happened and we got sanctioned..IN wanted to have 6 U-boats but with sanctions that was not possible..
 
They did take it but then POKHRAN happened and we got sanctioned..IN wanted to have 6 U-boats but with sanctions that was not possible..

Hi Jha, Pokhran was in 1998, but these subs were build way befor that, check this:

...The first two submarines sailed for India in February 1987, while the last two were delayed by assembly problems caused by faulty welding. In 1984 it was announced that two more submarines would be built at the Mazagon Dock Ltd. (MDL) in Mumbai,but this was overtaken by events in 1987-88 and the agreement with HDW was terminated at just four submarines. This was reconsidered in 1992 and again in 1997, but no orders were placed. It was reported that INS Shishumar suffered some minor damage, in early October 2003 off Goa, when it hit an underwater object...

Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Shishumar Class


And this happened in 1987-88:

HDW

The case of HDW makes instructive reading. A contract was signed with the German firm in December 1981. India was to get two HDW 209 class fully built submarines and sub-assemblies and components for assembling two other submarines in India. HDW was also to provide required training to Indian personnel.

HDW delivered two submarines in 1987 and two more were assembled in India in due course. As allegations of bribery and kickbacks became public, the Government decided to blacklist the company. It was also decided not to build any more submarines of the same class. Marlog, a company jointly owned by HDW and Ferrostal, took over the responsibility to fulfill all contractual obligations...

Blacklisting Foreign Vendors


Another one:

According to sources, the defence ministry is keen to revive the HDW deal, but the Indian Navy prefers the French Scorpene. The Indian government and HDW signed an agreement in December 1981 for two 209-class submarines to be built in Germany and another two to be assembled in India followed by transfer of technology for two more submarines. But the deal for the fifth and sixth submarine was terminated after the HDW scandal broke out...
...Between 1992 and 1997, the government had considered lifting the ban on HDW
, but that was before the Navy thought of upgrading the German submarines. Now, one of the HDW submarines, INS Shishumar, is, in fact, being upgraded in Mumbai and the three others are to follow suit.

Blacklisted Firm HDW Offers Transfer Of Technology In Submarine Deal


As you can see, Pokhran and sanctions had nothing to do with the decision IN took and the later preference for French subs and especially techs were obvious.
To some extend I can even understand it, because the ToT of an nuclear propulsion was important for our SSN and SSBN developments, but they clearly underestimated the lack of AIP propulsion.
It would have been better to upgrade the Shishumar class subs and take the optional 2 subs as a stop gap, till the new French subs will be inducted, especially when the first won't have AIP.


Can these U-209 boats be upgraded to U-214 standards ?

To some extend! You can add the AIP propulsion and some weapons, or systems and even if it is based on the older U209, the design is more advanced (but less than the U212).
 
what is required is, establishing an institute of excellence for submarines design & development. We have to create good human resources who have good experience building these subs and at least 2 ship yards should be assigned this, so that they can specialized in this particular area itself, instead of allowing all ship yards to build, this would take time, and people will lose the skills.
 
Hi Jha, Pokhran was in 1998, but these subs were build way befor that, check this:



Bharat-Rakshak.com :: NAVY - Shishumar Class


And this happened in 1987-88:



Blacklisting Foreign Vendors


Another one:



Blacklisted Firm HDW Offers Transfer Of Technology In Submarine Deal


As you can see, Pokhran and sanctions had nothing to do with the decision IN took and the later preference for French subs and especially techs were obvious.
To some extend I can even understand it, because the ToT of an nuclear propulsion was important for our SSN and SSBN developments, but they clearly underestimated the lack of AIP propulsion.
It would have been better to upgrade the Shishumar class subs and take the optional 2 subs as a stop gap, till the new French subs will be inducted, especially when the first won't have AIP.




To some extend! You can add the AIP propulsion and some weapons, or systems and even if it is based on the older U209, the design is more advanced (but less than the U212).

ohhk..

I was under the impression that Pokhran was responsible for cancellation of U-boats..
 

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