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I suppose this makes it definitive....

Didn't get the notification, just happened to be reading this thread and found your post! Great discussion so far, and I am glad it has avoided the usual mud slinging and juvenile pseudo-science.

@WebMaster I know you've got a very busy schedule, but can you please have a look at the tagging system. This is the fourth or fifth time I've been tagged and I haven't gotten any notifications.

As for the dontometric and dental morphology analyses, it is incomplete, and there certain facets that need to be clarified, first as one of the Indian posters, who's name I've forgotten stated, where did they get these ancient samples from, and how they are extrapolating data from such a small sample to such a large group. But here it is:

"The Awans are a well-known ethnic group found in the southern districts of the Khyber Pukhtunkhwa Province of Pakistan. Awans claim to be immigrants from western Afghanistan. However, Brandreth (Ibbetson, 2001) asserts that Awans emigrated from north-central Afghanistan. Other researchers claim the Awans are indigenous South Asians, being related to either Rajput or Jat populations of peninsular India (Cunningham, 2010) or to local ethnic groups of the northern Indus Valley of Pakistan (Dani, 1993).

This investigation is based on measurement of maximum mesiodistal lengths and buccolingual breadths of all permanent teeth, except third molars, and assessment of dental morphology variations scored in accordance with the Arizona State University Dental Morphology System in a sample of 176 Awan young adults. These data were contrasted with 21 samples of prehistoric and living individuals from Pakistan, peninsular India, Central Asia, and the Iranian Plateau. Patterns of intersample differences were examined with neighbor-joining cluster analysis and principal coordinates analysis.

Results obtained from odontometric and dental morphology analyses are highly congruent. In both cases, Awans are identified as possessing closest affinities to prehistoric inhabitants of the Indus Valley, with more distant affinities to living ethnic groups from the Hindu Kush highlands and inhabitants of peninsular India. Awans share little to no affinities to prehistoric inhabitants of Central Asia. Such results suggest that the living Awans of Mansehra District most likely represent the descendants of indigenous populations of the Indus Valley of Pakistan, and provide no support for claims of Central Asian or peninsular Indian origins."

http://meeting.physanth.org/program...ndia-a-dental-morphometric-investigation.html

@Joe Shearer

Thanks buddy.

What did the scientists use as the IVC samples for the measurements?

Cheers, Doc
 

Thank you sir.

I believe it was posted and discussed earlier in this forum (though don't quote me on it, my memory is getting hazier and hazier regarding this forum and I like it that way to be honest).

Now you yourself can see a certain someone's extended strawmen+ad hominem opinions ruin this thread as well.

Sad being Tam-Brahm myself, the most worst kind of our (thankfully now pretty outdated and rare) thinking has infected and permeated to this level in the discourse among people that have little to no manifested and realised cultural connection to either the IVC or Aryan Migrations....but rather use this as some excuse to bray the same old ethnic-superiority complexes. When stripped of everything else, perceived race-ethnicity is the last barrier...its often unsurmountable for populists (and blow back is immense)...as we saw eventually in weimar germany.

Then same people hypocritically alter and distort their same arguments when it relates to their immediate environment in foreign countries with foreign buffers and accommodations. I shake my head good sir at all of it.
 
@Kaptaan

Interesting factoid.

Parsis in Mumbai traditionally call their Marathi maids Ganga.

The hardcore kastha sari wearing ones, who give as good as they get when it comes to equally loud and opinionated bawis.

A match made in heaven.

Cheers, Doc
 
Couple of weeks ago much awaited ancient DNA paper from Greece was released. Turns out Mycenaean Greeks who were IE speakers had steppe ancestry and were more like modern day greeks. Not only that but the sample taken from elite burial had bit more steppe ancestry then average Mycenaean Greek.

While Minoan civilisation which is older then Mycenaean had no steppe ancestry and neither spoke IE language. Both are similar genetically if we take out steppe ancestry. We will see something similar in case of south asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.es/2017/08/steppe-admixture-in-mycenaeans.html

This, too, is a confirmation of the migration model, except that in the case of the Greeks, the invasion and conquest themes are frankly acknowledged and clearly reflected in elite burial methods; the Mycenaean tombs and their contents clearly belonged to an aristocratic layer. Greek proto-history is an affirmation of its Indian counterpart; even the dates are affirmative. A consideration of the similarities and the cross-references could go on and on. It is better to stop where you did, delineating a society dominated by descendants of steppe-dwelling migrants married into a pre-existing autochthonous population.

Thank you sir.

I believe it was posted and discussed earlier in this forum (though don't quote me on it, my memory is getting hazier and hazier regarding this forum and I like it that way to be honest).

Now you yourself can see a certain someone's extended strawmen+ad hominem opinions ruin this thread as well.

Sad being Tam-Brahm myself, the most worst kind of our (thankfully now pretty outdated and rare) thinking has infected and permeated to this level in the discourse among people that have little to no manifested and realised cultural connection to either the IVC or Aryan Migrations....but rather use this as some excuse to bray the same old ethnic-superiority complexes. When stripped of everything else, perceived race-ethnicity is the last barrier...its often unsurmountable for populists (and blow back is immense)...as we saw eventually in weimar germany.

Then same people hypocritically alter and distort their same arguments when it relates to their immediate environment in foreign countries with foreign buffers and accommodations. I shake my head good sir at all of it.

I knew I'd forgotten somebody. Apologies, @Nilgiri, put it down to a combination of senility and uncertainty about the continued existence of decent Indian members.

Coming back to your sad commentary, I don't agree; those were indeed blatant strawman and, in places, ad hominem interventions, and can be seen as such, and left alone. We already have a clear statement of purpose from a rare specimen, an intellectually well-endowed participant in that sub-discussion; I have personally no difficulty in ignoring those deliberate and ideologically originated interventions, and concentrating on the other academic and thought-through posts. I beg you to do the same; acknowledge and respect the intellect of a thin crust among those interlocutors, and ignore their content and concentrate on the interesting and germane content of the discussions.

If you will permit me to re-direct your attention to the original theme, recent archaeological analysis and reconsideration of the contents of south Indian (not south Asian) epigraphy has generated a model of a relatively late adoption of an imported theogony and its supporters, the priests of that theogony. There are enormous spans of time between any possible date for a possible historical person named Agasthya and these developments in Tamilakam; do you think that it could be that there was a two-step process at work? An initial Sanskritisation of the Deccan, the land of the Maratha, the Telinga, the Andhra and the Kannada, followed by a much later phase of Sanskritisation of Tamilakam?
 
Thanks Joe. I am sure you have heard of the saying by Samuel Johnson "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". I am that scoundrel. How on earth is a left leaning secularist like me going to gain traction with masses from Pakistan? By joining in the religious frenzy? By peddling even more ethnic divides? By polishing sectarianism? In this environment ultra-nationalism is lesser of the evils and the device to whip nationalism is in the shape of India. The goodwill so purchased [at a price - diabolic reputation with Indians] can then be expended in peddling my agenda - ever so subtly moving Pakistanis away from various afflictions they have picked up. As I said in another thread - it's not personal, just business.

your goal is to change the masses in pakistan. i assume you want pakistan to be a better country.
feeding frenzy against India won't work unless it is backed with concrete action. most of your demons reside within the state of pakistan. plus you cannot over-extend yourselves with wars you cannot win
 
-extend yourselves with wars you cannot win
There is zero chance of winning war against India - it is simply too large by factor of 7 times. We might be able to reduce that advantage by technology but we don't have that edge either. So I never push toward war. Indeed I would prefer reduction in military spending and rely more on nuclear deterance. I just try to use nationalism to bridge the differances between Paks and work against religious extremism using nationalism as a bulwark.
 
Thee is zero chance of winning war against India - it is simply too large by factor of 7 times. We might be able to reduce that advantage by technology but we don't have that edge either. So I never push toward war. Indeed I would prefer reduction in military spending and rely more on nuclear deterance. I just try to use nationalism to bridge the differances between Paks and work against religious extremism usinh nationalism as a bulwark.

it is not the outcome of the war. it is the diversion of resources and brains. every $$$ and minute spent on war with India is one less for internal problem
 
it is not the outcome of the war. it is the diversion of resources and brains. every $$$ and minute spent on war with India is one less for internal problem
Well the $$$ argumant can be extended to India as vigorously. Pakistan needs a very strong military. Most developing countries with multi-ethnic and or tribal divides need a strong core - this applies to India as well. However yes we could use some of the resources toward internal development. every dollar helps but I think corruption, mismanagement are bigger issues then money spent on defence. Again as I said we could reduce that.

For example I have advocated here that Pak Navy needs to be 50% downsized. why the hell do we need a navy beyond a coastguard for? We can never compete with India because she is too large. The airforce should be kept about the same size.The army needs to shed big chunk of it's armour. Any war with India would be short before it goes nuclear so we don't need huge armoured forces. They need downsizing also. The saved money should all go into internal security/police ands schools. The nuclear forces should of course recieve priority funding and be ready to provide nuclear deterance without any ambigouty.
 
Well the $$$ argumant can be extended to India as vigorously. Pakistan needs a very strong military. Most developing countries with multi-ethnic and or tribal divides need a strong core - this applies to India as well. However yes we could use some of the resources toward internal development. every dollar helps but I think corruption, mismanagement are bigger issues then money spent on defence. Again as I said we could reduce that.

For example I have advocated here that Pak Navy needs to be 50% downsized. why the hell do we need a navy beyond a coastguard for? We can never compete with India because she is too large. The airforce should be kept about the same size.The army needs to shed big chunk of it's armour. Any war with India would be short before it goes nuclear so we don't need huge armoured forces. They need downsizing also. The saved money should all go into internal security/police ands schools. The nuclear forces should of course recieve priority funding and be ready to provide nuclear deterance without any ambigouty.
Actually Pakistan should have a large Navy enough for deterrence.

We should field a large Navy.
 
Well the $$$ argumant can be extended to India as vigorously. Pakistan needs a very strong military. Most developing countries with multi-ethnic and or tribal divides need a strong core - this applies to India as well. However yes we could use some of the resources toward internal development. every dollar helps but I think corruption, mismanagement are bigger issues then money spent on defence. Again as I said we could reduce that.

For example I have advocated here that Pak Navy needs to be 50% downsized. why the hell do we need a navy beyond a coastguard for? We can never compete with India because she is too large. The airforce should be kept about the same size.The army needs to shed big chunk of it's armour. Any war with India would be short before it goes nuclear so we don't need huge armoured forces. They need downsizing also. The saved money should all go into internal security/police ands schools. The nuclear forces should of course recieve priority funding and be ready to provide nuclear deterance without any ambigouty.

It is not so much the money spent on military that bothers me. It is the attention & mindshare.

What I say for Pakistan is doubly true for India. To give Indian leaders credit they did not spend much on military until 1962. Even after that Indian politicians have not consistently funded military priorities.

India's best & brightest have never joined the military

Actually Pakistan should have a large Navy enough for deterrence.

We should field a large Navy.

A large navy without air cover is a sitting duck to enemy aviation
 
You know how Western so called experts for decades have peddled the idea of demise of Pakistan which reached fever pitch over the last decade. That never was even on the cards. It was never going to happen for the simple reason that any state with such huge professional military would never 'fail' or implode. That can only happen if there is no strong backbone that reinforces the state. In Pakistan with such a huge military it has created internal linkages - involving millions of serving, retired, familes of military or those who have indirect linkages with that institution. with such robust architecture a state like Pakistan cannot fail unless the milirary turns on itself and that has never and will never happen for variety of reasons. Furthermore the military pulls in diffeant ethnic groups and moulds them into one - creating a vested groups even after they have retired. This is the factor foreign observors ignore.

And I say again we need just a coatguard. Save the money and spend it on internal security/police.
 
Coming back to your sad commentary, I don't agree; those were indeed blatant strawman and, in places, ad hominem interventions, and can be seen as such, and left alone. We already have a clear statement of purpose from a rare specimen, an intellectually well-endowed participant in that sub-discussion; I have personally no difficulty in ignoring those deliberate and ideologically originated interventions, and concentrating on the other academic and thought-through posts. I beg you to do the same; acknowledge and respect the intellect of a thin crust among those interlocutors, and ignore their content and concentrate on the interesting and germane content of the discussions.

You see thats the difference. I don't like ignoring parts of the argument people make if there is a vile (non scientific) end-objective to it (whatever scientific base they initially use for the agenda). I like keeping the conversation grounded within the envelope of what that science discovers and analyses....something that often itself changes over time as seen here. When that is used to promote a non-science, quite caustic agenda, I cannot ignore it (because ignoring it is dangerous from historic perspective a lot of the time)....especially if its being hammered again and again in some Goebbels-style approach by same person/people. Anyway, not really what I want to talk with you about per se, just a passing personal commentary.

If you will permit me to re-direct your attention to the original theme, recent archaeological analysis and reconsideration of the contents of south Indian (not south Asian) epigraphy has generated a model of a relatively late adoption of an imported theogony and its supporters, the priests of that theogony. There are enormous spans of time between any possible date for a possible historical person named Agasthya and these developments in Tamilakam; do you think that it could be that there was a two-step process at work? An initial Sanskritisation of the Deccan, the land of the Maratha, the Telinga, the Andhra and the Kannada, followed by a much later phase of Sanskritisation of Tamilakam?

Yes I do believe there were waves of this process and counter-process (each with different level of permeation, dependent on many factors but probably most correlated to the effective power projection available during the time with the tools available etc - something that definitely physical distances play a role as we see continually in history). It probably also explains the Dravidian/Prakrit reverse-influences found in classical sanskrit compared to Vedic Sanskrit. But ultimately prakrits became the dominant lingua franca (and what really developed over time that can be measured influence wise) anyway in the subcontinent given the rules sanskrit never relinquished.

So yes the vehicle of this cultural permeation on the back of Vedic mythologies (given Sanskrit use is indeed a very good marker of this one would assume) spanned a lot of time in the Tamil core area in the deep south....simply by physical distance from the northern river systems where the Vedic civ flourished and the presence of the mighty Deccan peninsula between the two. Its compounded by the various waves of Brahmin/vedic people migration to the south.....I think the story of Parashuram in Kerala (reclaiming the land from the sea) is really more of an allegory for a migration of Vedic people to the area for example. Similar stories are found in the references of the Alvar Saints regarding the puranic waves that happened later.

During the Tamil Sangam period after all, there was very heavy Jain and Buddhist presence in the kauvery and vaigai river systems...again I feel an overall allegory of it is included in the story of the saivite saint Appar who was originally a Jain monk. This initial presence is very indicative of the overall Deccan influence you talk of given the larger "void" found in Tamilakam for the original vedic culture (thus allowing such a Jain and Buddhist culture to really take root in the area insofar as non-indigenous cultural influences of the time are concerned). Its a matter of ongoing study and debate, I hope more is devoted it, its quite fascinating.
 
You know how Western so called experts for decades have peddled the idea of demise of Pakistan which reached fever pitch over the last decade. That never was even on the cards. It was never going to happen for the simple reason that any state with such huge professional military would never 'fail' or implode. That can only happen if there is no strong backbone that reinforces the state. In Pakistan with such a huge military it has created internal linkages - involving millions of serving, retired, familes of military or those who have indirect linkages with that institution. with such robust architecture a state like Pakistan cannot fail unless the milirary turns on itself and that has never and will never happen for variety of reasons. Furthermore the military pulls in diffeant ethnic groups and moulds them into one - creating a vested groups even after they have retired. This is the factor foreign observors ignore.

And I say again we need just a coatguard. Save the money and spend it on internal security/police.

the soviet union had a large military
 
Thanks buddy.

What did the scientists use as the IVC samples for the measurements?

Cheers, Doc

That's the question I have no answer to and which brings the whole study in to question. But anyways, I don't want to say too much as I believe that this study was not completed and the esteemed author is currently expanding their study and will publish them fully.
 

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