Have you read this rather nice book,"Destiny Disrupted"? It is admittedly written in a sometimes breathless, News-of-the-World style (it is a 'trade book', after all), but was rather good reading.
No, admittedly but I might look into it.
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Have you read this rather nice book,"Destiny Disrupted"? It is admittedly written in a sometimes breathless, News-of-the-World style (it is a 'trade book', after all), but was rather good reading.
There are different views on which individual really turned mainstream Islamic theology and philosophy to become increasingly introvert. Ghazali is generally considered one of the contenders. Another is Abu Ali Hasan ibn Ali Tusi, the Persian scholar and Vizier who established the Nizamiyah school system. At the end of the day geo-politically speaking the Muslim world was on the "back-foot" at this point (to use the cricketing term). The major cultural and academic capitals of the Muslim world (Cordoba, Baghdad, Bukhara, Damascus, Jerusalem) had all been lost to the likes of the Spanish reconquista, Mongols as well as the Crusaders. Cairo was the only major center of culture and education to survive, thanks to Baibars and its no surprise that Al Azhar is generally speaking regarded as one of the centers of religious studies today in the Sunni world. However military and political defeats automatically leads people towards dogmatism, so that their understanding of the world and themselves makes more sense.
The Ottomans tried to reignite the spark, a notable example of a scientist living at their patronage being Taqi ad-Din Shami, but it was an Empire existing against all odds, fighting numerous coalitions and beset on all sides by enemies waiting for a moment of weakness to pounce. The Empire became increasingly focused around warfare (which they excelled at). However as the centuries rolled the tide was increasingly turning towards the Europeans as we all know.
This is the dumbest theory I've ever heard Hindustani nationalists propagate.
Your ancestors got with foreigners, they may have even been raped and pillaged.
Deal with it.
I am not a Pakistani!
And no physical violence from the right wing Hindus? They are just as organised, just as single-minded, but fortunately not organised for the para-military carnage that ISIS or Al Qaeda are. They simply happen to follow the great Indian tradition of rioting and murderous assault. Of course, you have argued that there is a difference; some deaths are deader than others. An obvious point, and apparent to all but the naive, in their naivete, or their naivette, as you like it.
Are you then of the opinion that until the RSS/BJP types smooth and perfect their tactics (more their methodology, but then we naive tend to obfuscate the obvious purity of purpose of the Hindu by quibbling with words), we should give them the indulgence that we grant an L Plate holder on the roads? That is what your position amounts to.
This, too, is a confirmation of the migration model, except that in the case of the Greeks, the invasion and conquest themes are frankly acknowledged and clearly reflected in elite burial methods; the Mycenaean tombs and their contents clearly belonged to an aristocratic layer. Greek proto-history is an affirmation of its Indian counterpart; even the dates are affirmative. A consideration of the similarities and the cross-references could go on and on. It is better to stop where you did, delineating a society dominated by descendants of steppe-dwelling migrants married into a pre-existing autochthonous population.
I knew I'd forgotten somebody. Apologies, @Nilgiri, put it down to a combination of senility and uncertainty about the continued existence of decent Indian members.
Coming back to your sad commentary, I don't agree; those were indeed blatant strawman and, in places, ad hominem interventions, and can be seen as such, and left alone. We already have a clear statement of purpose from a rare specimen, an intellectually well-endowed participant in that sub-discussion; I have personally no difficulty in ignoring those deliberate and ideologically originated interventions, and concentrating on the other academic and thought-through posts. I beg you to do the same; acknowledge and respect the intellect of a thin crust among those interlocutors, and ignore their content and concentrate on the interesting and germane content of the discussions.
If you will permit me to re-direct your attention to the original theme, recent archaeological analysis and reconsideration of the contents of south Indian (not south Asian) epigraphy has generated a model of a relatively late adoption of an imported theogony and its supporters, the priests of that theogony. There are enormous spans of time between any possible date for a possible historical person named Agasthya and these developments in Tamilakam; do you think that it could be that there was a two-step process at work? An initial Sanskritisation of the Deccan, the land of the Maratha, the Telinga, the Andhra and the Kannada, followed by a much later phase of Sanskritisation of Tamilakam?
Perhaps academics like you are the reason for this upsurge and ultimate popularity of so called "Hinduic Brigade" although it still misses me the Hinduness of this brigade other than the vermilion on forehead and may be poseidon's staff's in photos available here and there.
I truly believe the intelligentia of this society have let down this country in their some times wanted and sometimes resultant cohabitation with so called Secular or should i say sicular democratic grand old party of India. (vermilion replaced by muslim or christian symbols and secular secular jaap??).
I mean i have never seen the signature campaigns for distinguished eminent scholars in Congressi times ?? (or even Vajpayee times too probably) as in this.
Political correctness and inclusiveness for 60+ years (ofcourse 70) have rather given rise to some nasty perceptions. I mean in the end the general guy is scratching his head at what has happened and what is happening and where he stands!!!!
Onething i am finding truly repulsive Joe is that i as a brahmin hindu kid never heard an utter of contempt for any other (either religious or cast wise ) from my family or among friends leave aside pointers to differences but now oh the hate online and even among people am surprised where we are headed???
In the end its a question of who is fuelling whom or what is fuelling what here.
So does Agastya point to or is allegory to transfer of this Indo Aryan culture which as per this inconclusive study of migration theory from out of India to North to South?
There is a sub caste in Brahmins called 6000 Niyogis who seem to have crossed over from Maharashtra or some Northern territory into Andhra (dont remember correctly which it is). Admittedly this is too recent so above influx cant be ruled out seeing India at crossroads so to speak although most people find it problematic when assertions about them bringing in Sanskrit and Vedas with them hehe.
Where do the Dalit subcaste end up in this equation?
are they the disenfranchised in the process of Vedic culture being forced upon local Indic tribes? some times it is really confusing. No mention of this word in puranic traditions i believe (not sure fully)
Also as some earlier poster mentioned why are the Iranian or Russian or Centran Asian lands free of such language or culture??
Good joke, but still factually incorrect.
North Hindustanis experienced the same thing, just about everyone in the region who is hairy and not black experienced this.
Interesting points. Not strong, but very sensitive and well worth an answer, which I shall humbly attempt.
A very valid point, but only in context.
Collapsing the whole tug-of-war into an academic battle between two academic camps has more than one weakness.
First, it ignores the entire intellectual history of the sub-continent; it ignores the primal lemma that a major historical occurrence, and possibly a major root of subsequently unique Indian intellectual frameworks, was a breakaway faction of a larger grouping who imposed their language, their theology and, partially, their theogony, and perhaps significant social structures and parts of current social processes into the sub-continent. While it is not sought to be argued here that this was a total root-and-branch replacement of existing society and culture, or that the old ways were totally abandoned, it is reasonable to argue from the evidence that we have that there was a significant degree of cross-fertilisation, leading, finally, to amalgamation of the opposed cultures.
The point? Why, simply this; that vigorous, robust intellectual debate, and related social churn, was part of Indian intellectual history right from the visible, recognisable outset; we honestly don't have any clues to the preceding centuries, ranging back to the Mohenjodaro-Harappa culture. These debates occurred at various times; passing over, for the moment, the evidence of contention between different schools of philosophy that ended in the practical elimination of four out of the six identified, we have the massive ferment of the seventh century BC. It cannot be without social significance that two of the world's great religious and philosophical teachers are identified with the ruling class, and are apparently hostile to the earlier religious ethos. We can take note, in passing, of the struggles that followed, by tracing the political history of the times (recorded not by us Indians but by the foreigners who analysed our own fragmented and indirect sources and put these into a coherent narrative).
The part that you are unhappy about was merely one of the very late episodes in this on-going tussle between political philosophies, into which academic research and procedure has been challenged at the grass-roots.
Having come to a working understanding with the ruling elements of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, an understanding evolved over nearly six centuries of engagement with an unknown religion and its philosophers and theologians, the Indian intellectual elite was suddenly blind-sided by the rapid acquisition of power by a very remote civilisation and cultural and intellectual ethos, one to which it had not been exposed before. A change of front resulted, from an exploration of their respective linguistic positions, to an examination of legal systems, and to a concentrated attempt to understand the fiscal foundations, the taxation processes and, inevitably, in a pre-modern age, the land-holding and land ownership patterns. This was when there was put down the roots of today's hatred by the traditional intellectual elite (not to be confused with the social or political elite) of Indian society.
So when you speak of the academics like you, what you actually mean is academics of the western persuasion, those who believe in the scientific method, those whose attention is outward, towards empirical studies of the sort that the British made famous, and towards a culture of peer-reviewed papers published in journals accepted by a dominant section of the intellectual world. These - the scientific method, outward, rather than inward, attention, the substitution of empiricism for conjectural or metaphysical investigation, and the network of academically acceptable means of self-expression - are totally lost on the local, hitherto displaced elite. Their lack of engagement with these aspects of society and academic practice led to their inability to meet the challenges of the British Raj. On this feeling of inadequacy and its attendant defensiveness is based the great resurgence and the growth of a pseudo-historical counter-culture. In the current narrative of the traditional elite, they are the victims of an unequal social structure, and are entitled to compensation, and to active discrimination in their favour to right the historical wrongs done to them. Dalit and minority grievances become manufactures of the artificial intellectual structure imposed on society by colonialists. Their claims to victimhood and their claims to correction of millennia of discrimination now become political manoeuvres intended to perpetuate the disinherited status of the traditional elite.
This deplorable statement and the completely different one that follows show the confusion that has infused the traditional elite.
It is not clear what you mean by the 'so-called Secular'; is that an illicit class or category, or were the people proclaiming that principle actually working against its principles, and creating a non-secular society?
[I mean this political fight has got so vitriolic that it has seeped into living rooms of people!!!
Seems that now the bastards are turning to Dalits who seem to be replacing Muslims now as the scoring point.