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I suppose this makes it definitive....

There is a qualitative difference between honest pride in one's own, and the kind of painfully forced jingoism that one sees being perpetrated at the political level. If you are unable to perceive or to acknowledge it, obviously you believe that it is normal and there is nothing much left to discuss.

there is a difference between the verbal jingoism of some right wing Hindus and the physical violence that marks most of the right wing Islamic groups throughout the world. If you fail to see the difference I have one word for you - naivette.

I agree some RSS/BJP types attempt to indulge in the same tactics of the right wing Islamic groups
 
there is a difference between the verbal jingoism of some right wing Hindus and the physical violence that marks most of the right wing Islamic groups throughout the world. If you fail to see the difference I have one word for you - naivette.

I agree some RSS/BJP types attempt to indulge in the same tactics of the right wing Islamic groups

And no physical violence from the right wing Hindus? They are just as organised, just as single-minded, but fortunately not organised for the para-military carnage that ISIS or Al Qaeda are. They simply happen to follow the great Indian tradition of rioting and murderous assault. Of course, you have argued that there is a difference; some deaths are deader than others. An obvious point, and apparent to all but the naive, in their naivete, or their naivette, as you like it.

Are you then of the opinion that until the RSS/BJP types smooth and perfect their tactics (more their methodology, but then we naive tend to obfuscate the obvious purity of purpose of the Hindu by quibbling with words), we should give them the indulgence that we grant an L Plate holder on the roads? That is what your position amounts to.
 
And no physical violence from the right wing Hindus? They are just as organised, just as single-minded, but fortunately not organised for the para-military carnage that ISIS or Al Qaeda are. They simply happen to follow the great Indian tradition of rioting and murderous assault. Of course, you have argued that there is a difference; some deaths are deader than others. An obvious point, and apparent to all but the naive, in their naivete, or their naivette, as you like it.

Are you then of the opinion that until the RSS/BJP types smooth and perfect their tactics (more their methodology, but then we naive tend to obfuscate the obvious purity of purpose of the Hindu by quibbling with words), we should give them the indulgence that we grant an L Plate holder on the roads? That is what your position amounts to.

Muaaahhhh

Subhan Allah!

One cyber laddoo offered to your formative years English teacher/s.

Cheers, Doc
 
And no physical violence from the right wing Hindus? They are just as organised, just as single-minded, but fortunately not organised for the para-military carnage that ISIS or Al Qaeda are. They simply happen to follow the great Indian tradition of rioting and murderous assault. Of course, you have argued that there is a difference; some deaths are deader than others. An obvious point, and apparent to all but the naive, in their naivete, or their naivette, as you like it.

Are you then of the opinion that until the RSS/BJP types smooth and perfect their tactics (more their methodology, but then we naive tend to obfuscate the obvious purity of purpose of the Hindu by quibbling with words), we should give them the indulgence that we grant an L Plate holder on the roads? That is what your position amounts to.

The moderate wing of the BJP has never stopped changes in Indian society. The extremists cause trouble. They are too few in number.
 
The moderate wing of the BJP has never stopped changes in Indian society. The extremists cause trouble. They are too few in number.

What, in Heaven's name, is moderate about the BJP? That some of them advocate starving to death the furriner while the others prefer to shove a trishul up the sensitive parts of the furriner women? Do you read what you write before sending it on?
 
What, in Heaven's name, is moderate about the BJP? That some of them advocate starving to death the furriner while the others prefer to shove a trishul up the sensitive parts of the furriner women? Do you read what you write before sending it on?

Have you studied how the some of the countries in rest of the world oppress their minorities ?

What is moderate about the BJP ?
they have kept the Constitution, federalism, two language formula intact ...
 
What, in Heaven's name, is moderate about the BJP? That some of them advocate starving to death the furriner while the others prefer to shove a trishul up the sensitive parts of the furriner women? Do you read what you write before sending it on?

Not to forget copulation with the dead bodies of furriner ladies.

Cheers, Doc
 
<sigh!>

Why are you doing this?

The Greeks were proud to announce that their discoveries were mysteriously rooted in Egyptian knowledge. Prior cultural influence of Egyptians?

The Arabs contributed nothing original until after (not because, simply after) they converted to Islam. Only a handful of Arabs made their mark in earlier times, as Christian religious figures, or as imperial personages in the Byzantine Empire.

Nobody said, or claims that Islam produced a Golden Age. It is nonetheless true that the conditions of peace and tranquillity conducive to intellectual enquiry and discovery were fostered by the caliphate, notably under the Abbasids.

Finally, nobody is disputing that it ended centuries ago. To be precise, although not connected to secular movements and trends, it might in a sense be related with justification to the 'closing of the gates of ijtihad'. That put paid to theological enquiry (and still inhibits it); it also brought the intellectual ferment to a grinding halt.

It is sad to see this abortive line being promoted; the Golden Age of Islam was genuine, and it ushered in the European Renaissance.

There is a mainstream narrative present today which asserts that Islam is incompatible with science, education and rationality. Of course the fact that the Mu'tazila were once the state supported sect of Islam under the Abbassiya Caliphate is more or less forgotten (even so in the Muslim world). I suppose in part we have the Mongols to thank for that. Their destruction of Baghdad and the Bayt al Hikma was a great loss for human civilization.
 
There is a mainstream narrative present today which asserts that Islam is incompatible with science, education and rationality. Of course the fact that the Mu'tazila were once the state supported sect of Islam under the Abbassiya Caliphate is more or less forgotten (even so in the Muslim world). I suppose in part we have the Mongols to thank for that. Their destruction of Baghdad and the Bayt al Hikma was a great loss for human civilization.

The mainstream view that you have mentioned is so rabidly anti-historical that I get a pain in my gut when I read it. Please note that I am not an enthusiast of Islam; on the contrary. Leaving aside my strongly anti-religious feelings, the way in which Muslim scientific, social and historical analysis flowed, its prolific nature, its zest for enquiry, its questioning of every dogmatic belief, make a nonsense of this 'mainstream' view.

Although I am hesitant to run lumbering into a minefield, it was - is - my understanding that Al Ghazaly's flinty denigration of any and every episode of rational and independent thought was the key factor behind both the religious prohibition of enquiry and the death of scientific and sociological enquiry.
 
The mainstream view that you have mentioned is so rabidly anti-historical that I get a pain in my gut when I read it. Please note that I am not an enthusiast of Islam; on the contrary. Leaving aside my strongly anti-religious feelings, the way in which Muslim scientific, social and historical analysis flowed, its prolific nature, its zest for enquiry, its questioning of every dogmatic belief, make a nonsense of this 'mainstream' view.

Although I am hesitant to run lumbering into a minefield, it was - is - my understanding that Al Ghazaly's flinty denigration of any and every episode of rational and independent thought was the key factor behind both the religious prohibition of enquiry and the death of scientific and sociological enquiry.

Academic development in the Islamic world stopped simply because the main power and influence of the Islamic world shifted to people who were pure conquerors and were not really interested in much else (with the exception of architecture).
 
Academic development in the Islamic world stopped simply because the main power and influence of the Islamic world shifted to people who were pure conquerors and were not really interested in much else (with the exception of architecture).

Have you read this rather nice book,"Destiny Disrupted"? It is admittedly written in a sometimes breathless, News-of-the-World style (it is a 'trade book', after all), but was rather good reading.
 
Academic development in the Islamic world stopped simply because the main power and influence of the Islamic world shifted to people who were pure conquerors and were not really interested in much else (with the exception of architecture).
Nope,its the other way around why the Ottoman Empire became ''the sick man of Europe'' and lost everything.
 
The mainstream view that you have mentioned is so rabidly anti-historical that I get a pain in my gut when I read it. Please note that I am not an enthusiast of Islam; on the contrary. Leaving aside my strongly anti-religious feelings, the way in which Muslim scientific, social and historical analysis flowed, its prolific nature, its zest for enquiry, its questioning of every dogmatic belief, make a nonsense of this 'mainstream' view.

Although I am hesitant to run lumbering into a minefield, it was - is - my understanding that Al Ghazaly's flinty denigration of any and every episode of rational and independent thought was the key factor behind both the religious prohibition of enquiry and the death of scientific and sociological enquiry.

There are different views on which individual really turned mainstream Islamic theology and philosophy to become increasingly introvert. Ghazali is generally considered one of the contenders. Another is Abu Ali Hasan ibn Ali Tusi, the Persian scholar and Vizier who established the Nizamiyah school system. At the end of the day geo-politically speaking the Muslim world was on the "back-foot" at this point (to use the cricketing term). The major cultural and academic capitals of the Muslim world (Cordoba, Baghdad, Bukhara, Damascus, Jerusalem) had all been lost to the likes of the Spanish reconquista, Mongols as well as the Crusaders. Cairo was the only major center of culture and education to survive, thanks to Baibars and its no surprise that Al Azhar is generally speaking regarded as one of the centers of religious studies today in the Sunni world. However military and political defeats automatically leads people towards dogmatism, so that their understanding of the world and themselves makes more sense.

The Ottomans tried to reignite the spark, a notable example of a scientist living at their patronage being Taqi ad-Din Shami, but it was an Empire existing against all odds, fighting numerous coalitions and beset on all sides by enemies waiting for a moment of weakness to pounce. The Empire became increasingly focused around warfare (which they excelled at). However as the centuries rolled the tide was increasingly turning towards the Europeans as we all know.
 
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